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Old 05-27-2002, 10:40 AM   #16
crashmeister
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So what? If something goes wrong with M$ that user is also dead meat. Except he goes for phonesupport and forks over some serious money. You can throw money at RH- and Susesupport too. They are more than happy to help you out and get some cashflow going in the process.
And pls. don't tell me nothing goes ever wrong with M$ - i just lost 20gigs of data thanks to McAfee and my printer never works for more than one week.
 
Old 05-27-2002, 10:55 AM   #17
carpman
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Quote:
Originally posted by crashmeister
So what? If something goes wrong with M$ that user is also dead meat. Except he goes for phonesupport and forks over some serious money. You can throw money at RH- and Susesupport too. They are more than happy to help you out and get some cashflow going in the process.
And pls. don't tell me nothing goes ever wrong with M$ - i just lost 20gigs of data thanks to McAfee and my printer never works for more than one week.


Yes i am aware of paid for support via RH, Suse etc, but will they help with a Cable Modem provider problem? i think not.

I am not advocating MS, i got rid of my NT4 print server in favour of linux one, and i would never use McAfee software, was very unhappy when they took over Dr solomons.

Which raises the question, if Linux is so good why are using MS and McAfee?
 
Old 05-27-2002, 11:00 AM   #18
Calum
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will M$ phone support help you with a cable modem provider problem? you seem to be hopelessly enmeshed in the doublestandards net. please post me your rose tinted spectacles so i can break them into several bits for you.
I hate to point out the obvious but ring up your cable modem provider!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by carpman
why thanks for your pleasant reply, I am just trying to explore issues here, may a further explanation:
okay, sorry, just your comments about how linux would never be as good as windows full stop, just because of the fact that you don't like the start menu made me alittle incredulous and prompted my overzealous reply!
Quote:
....Switching on the PC getting their email or writing a quick letter are about as far as they go.
You may scoff at this type of user, but they make up the majority of home users.
I do not scoff at this user at all, they are a person who does not have the time or inclination to learn how to use a computer. That is okay, it should not be compulsory to learn how to use one, but if you buy one for your home, or use on in your actual job, then you have serious problems if you really do not know a bit about how to use it. If a user is really having this much trouble, i really would suggest they rethink their motivation for trying to use a computer in the first place.

Quote:
Yes I am aware of standards within linux development, but there is also a lot of disagreement within community, how do think we ended up with KDE and Gnome? Why does Suse have Yast, why do different distros put system files / dir in different places.
In order: GNOME exists because KDE was built on a proprietary library (Qt, which is now open source) and the free software foundation rightly thought there should be one desktop environment that was completely free and open source. re, Yast, not sure, can somebody else answer?, re dirs in different places, may i just say: "WINNT", "WINDOWS", and anywhere where a .dll file might go (and probably overwrite some other .dll that you required) since you are talking about how linux isn't as good as windows.
Quote:
Can I read the future, no I can't but I can make a good guess on the evidence I have seen.
and your guess is better than somebody else's eh? i reckon that M$ has got at the most 20 years to live, probably closer to 10, and they are planning on using all their dirty tricks on the way down to get as much money out of the public as possible. After that, no more windows. How sad. And my guess is as good as *anybody's*.
Quote:
As for easy menu configuring lol, I just installed RH 7.3 on my note book, I then added Ximian Gnome, I now have a an additional set of menus, abiword no longer works (font path issue), if this was a multi user system I would have to go though it and edit each set of menus. Why could Ximian not have merge the menus?
yeah well yippee for you! windows (9x i am talking about since we are talking about average users et c) does not even do multiuser environments properly. Set up a user and a password, and you can just press 'cancel' at the login prompt, login as nobody and then you are free to delete system files, format the drive, whatever (by accident or on purpose). Doesn't sound like a multiuser system to me.

Quote:
You mention use friendly, for the type of user I speak choice is not good, it only confuses.
yes that's right, choice is the enemy, i'd much rather have a corporate singularity have a monopoly over all software sales, so that they have no incentive to make the software better and their prime concern is money than have a choice about something that affects me and my own equipment that i paid for, why stop there? Abolish the vote too!

Quote:
On my note book my internet (cable modem, via hub and smoothwall) just stops working, with my limited knowledge I have to reboot. If this was in windows I would go to control panel, check status and driver. In linux this not user friendly.
it's not user frienfly in windows either! I also have limited linux knowledge of how to configure and so on so i won't bore you with how to fix it or anything, but let me just say this, what if you had limited knowledge of windows, but knew how to fix that in linux? Different story, eh? the only reason linux is not user friendly is because people are unwilling to use anything that isn't *identical* to windows. So far the only identical thing is windows. Having said that, there are many programs and so on in linux that are designed to make windows binaries (binaries mind! closed source ones at that!) run in linux. The linux community are trying their hardest to make the situation easy for windoids. Look at micro$oft's antics by contrast. Their every move is designed to make it harder for people to use linux. Can you run a linux binary in windows? well, can you?

Quote:
Don't get me wrong I like linux, I believe it is going in the right direction, I use it - web server, print server, workstation - but those who are comfortable using it should occasionally take their heads out of the clouds and see that as an end user system it still has a way to go.
Well it doesn't have that far to go, some of the slicker distros are just as easy to use as a win9x overall, also if you think that it's headed in the right direction and so on, why do you say it will never be able to compete with windows as far as usability is concerned??? And i do not have my head in the clouds. I just don't happen to agree with you. You don't agree with me, does that mean your head is in the sand?
Quote:
If it was so great and easy why are there so many busy forums dedicated to sorting out linux problems, the menu issue is an example of the type of issue that puts people of committing to linux.
There are just as many windows forums, and they are all full of "Q: I installed netscape and now i can't start my computer! A: The only solution is to reinstall everything." type posts. Besides, the fact that the linux community talks to each other is fantastic. Take as an analogy the mozilla vs IE debate. Some have had the audacity to say that IE is better because mozilla is full of bugs. They say bugs are being reported for mozilla all the time, and you hardly ever hear of internet explorer bugs. The answer is of course that of course IE has bugs, but all its bugs stay a secret until a lot of people get hacked or have their machines freeze up. Mozilla's bugs get soptted and fixed within a matter of hours. The end result is that one browser is more secure than the other. Which one? well IE relies soleley on keeping its bugs a secret for as long as possible, and mozilla relies on trying to keep its code bug free. Make your own mind up.

Quote:
If you think that this a generalisation why do so many people want to duel boot? They need the security of windoze, something they feel secure with and know they can get working and install software they use.
no, they have all been fleeced for several hundred pounds or dollars or whatever, and they have all got stuck with shitty EULAs that meran they will have to shell out all over again for the proprietary linux version if the wish to keep using it on another platform. Why should people pay twice for a program? Hopeless. Yet another reason to support the opensource/free software model.

Quote:
PS who the hell is Ballmer ?
the CEO of micro$oft. for more info see:
http://www.stenstad.net/storage/ballmer_dance.mpg
and
http://www.stenstad.net/storage/developers.mpg

Quote:
It is no use slaging me off,
I'm not. I am disagreeing with you in a heated fashion, but it is in no way personal.
Quote:
these are issues. Usability and familiar is important to a lot of people if not why do so many linux programs mimic MS or windows software interfaces - evolution for starters.
As mentioned above, people are very stubborn and will not accept any change that they do not see is necessary, even if it is good for them. They also descend to behaving like common rodents given not much persuasion. Have you ever seen some humans in a supermarket? They act in the most irrational fashion when you try to tell them that windows isn't the best thing that ever hit computers. They do not even know why they think what they think, but they will fight like a cornered rat. It is nothing to do, as you suggest, with rational and sensible decision making.

Last edited by Calum; 05-27-2002 at 11:07 AM.
 
Old 05-27-2002, 11:21 AM   #19
crashmeister
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Sure they help tou with anything you want a long as you keep the greenbacks flowing. Of course they can't press a ISP to use soft- and hardware that works with Linux.
Frankly - I don't see a big issue with netaccess. Hell i live in Brasil and don't have a problem with it - if i do those guys are at my house in 2 hrs and fix it for free.
I can't imagine that the US or Europe are worse in that aspect.
 
Old 05-27-2002, 12:03 PM   #20
carpman
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<Quote >
will M$ phone support help you with a cable modem provider problem? you seem to be hopelessly enmeshed in the doublestandards net. please post me your rose tinted spectacles so i can break them into several bits for you.
I hate to point out the obvious but ring up your cable modem provider!!! </Quote >

again you miss the point, it is not MS that will support cable modem issue it is that the cable modem provider will NOT SUPPORT you if you use linux.



<quote>
I do not scoff at this user at all, they are a person who does not have the time or inclination to learn how to use a computer. That is okay, it should not be compulsory to learn how to use one, but if you buy one for your home, or use on in your actual job, then you have serious problems if you really do not know a bit about how to use it. If a user is really having this much trouble, i really would suggest they rethink their motivation for trying to use a computer in the first place.
</quote>

Again miss the point, i know many users of computers, at work they can run rings around when it comes to using spread sheets or creating presentation, but when it come to setting up configuring a computer, solving a software bug they are completely lost if it anything other then very very easy.

<quote>
In order: GNOME exists because KDE was built on a proprietary library (Qt, which is now open source) and the free software foundation rightly thought there should be one desktop environment that was completely free and open source. re, Yast, not sure, can somebody else answer?, re dirs in different places, may i just say: "WINNT", "WINDOWS", and anywhere where a .dll file might go (and probably overwrite some other .dll that you required) since you are talking about how linux isn't as good as windows.
</quote>

Which goes to prove that standards in linux are not in stone, and hey i am not saying windows is great far from it, what i am saying is that linux still has a way to go and not all things linux are the best... at the moment.

<quote>

and your guess is better than somebody else's eh? i reckon that M$ has got at the most 20 years to live, probably closer to 10, and they are planning on using all their dirty tricks on the way down to get as much money out of the public as possible. After that, no more windows. How sad. And my guess is as good as *anybody's*.

</quote>

No every body is entitled to an opinion, me included, if you think window will disappear then i think you wrong, they will just changed -WinLinux- they did/do have stake in corel linux.



<quote>
yeah well yippee for you! windows (9x i am talking about since we are talking about average users et c) does not even do multiuser environments properly. Set up a user and a password, and you can just press 'cancel' at the login prompt, login as nobody and then you are free to delete system files, format the drive, whatever (by accident or on purpose). Doesn't sound like a multiuser system to me.
</quote>

again you miss the point, i not comparing Linux to windows although i have used it as bench mark, and you avoid the issue which is why did Ximian not merge menus?

<quote>
yes that's right, choice is the enemy, i'd much rather have a corporate singularity have a monopoly over all software sales, so that they have no incentive to make the software better and their prime concern is money than have a choice about something that affects me and my own equipment that i paid for, why stop there? Abolish the vote too!

</quote>

again you miss the point and also have the me me attitude, i am talking about me i talking about other users. I am not saying get rid of choice, just that too much of can be overwhelming. Start of with an easy to use simple interface, if a user need more then they can add it. Lots of complex software have multiple interfaces:

Beginner
Intimidate
Advanced

<quote>
the only reason linux is not user friendly is because people are unwilling to use anything that isn't *identical* to windows. So far the only identical thing is windows. Having said that, there are many programs and so on in linux that are designed to make windows binaries (binaries mind! closed source ones at that!) run in linux. The linux community are trying their hardest to make the situation easy for windoids. Look at micro$oft's antics by contrast. Their every move is designed to make it harder for people to use linux. Can you run a linux binary in windows? well, can you?
</quote>

Which proves my point, people won't changed unless it is easy to do so, yes linux community is aiming for this, i personally feel that a more centralised and standard based menu structure would help, yes you can use linux in windows VMware Lin$win, maybe not a binary but you can use the program, but would you, i personally would rather use a native linux program then a windows program that is made to word in linux.



<quote>
Well it doesn't have that far to go, some of the slicker distros are just as easy to use as a win9x overall, also if you think that it's headed in the right direction and so on, why do you say it will never be able to compete with windows as far as usability is concerned??? And i do not have my head in the clouds. I just don't happen to agree with you. You don't agree with me, does that mean your head is in the sand?
</quote>

Yes, as i have already said linux is usable that does not mean there is not room for improvement, i believe that Redmond Linux (think they have changed name) really made an effort with the menu structure so as to appeal to windoze users, this is what i talking about.
Is my head in the sand? no because i am willing to criticise both and look for the good in both with the hope that a very good OS can be developed, do you think linux would have come this far if it was not for the fact it was competing against MS?


<quote>
There are just as many windows forums, and they are all full of "Q: I installed netscape and now i can't start my computer! A: The only solution is to reinstall everything." type posts. Besides, the fact that the linux community talks to each other is fantastic. Take as an analogy the mozilla vs IE debate. Some have had the audacity to say that IE is better because mozilla is full of bugs. They say bugs are being reported for mozilla all the time, and you hardly ever hear of internet explorer bugs. The answer is of course that of course IE has bugs, but all its bugs stay a secret until a lot of people get hacked or have their machines freeze up. Mozilla's bugs get soptted and fixed within a matter of hours. The end result is that one browser is more secure than the other. Which one? well IE relies soleley on keeping its bugs a secret for as long as possible, and mozilla relies on trying to keep its code bug free. Make your own mind up.
</quote>

Never said MS was perfect!!! and i agree with, all software come out with bugs, if it did not we would never get any new software, and yes i agree MS is too secretive, not to mention the personal data capture Media player etc.
You seem to think i am an MS fan and hate Linux? it is the other way around.

<quote>
no, they have all been fleeced for several hundred pounds or dollars or whatever, and they have all got stuck with shitty EULAs that meran they will have to shell out all over again for the proprietary linux version if the wish to keep using it on another platform. Why should people pay twice for a program? Hopeless. Yet another reason to support the opensource/free software model.
</quote>

this is no reason not to change, as you say you can run windows software on linux

We are both on the same side here, though i think you are looking through rose tinted glasses

Yes linx is great but was never meant as a desktop system, yes people are like lemmings and when i try and covert them i get "will it run MS office" people like the familiar they will only change for a good reason and then only if it is easy. If linux can present nice eye candy and a familiar means of using a computer they will gain ground on MS, once the user is on linux they can then explore and hopefully find the choices it offers, though i still think they will just use it to do what they need too - which is ok.
 
Old 05-27-2002, 12:05 PM   #21
carpman
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Quote:
Originally posted by crashmeister
Sure they help tou with anything you want a long as you keep the greenbacks flowing. Of course they can't press a ISP to use soft- and hardware that works with Linux.
Frankly - I don't see a big issue with netaccess. Hell i live in Brasil and don't have a problem with it - if i do those guys are at my house in 2 hrs and fix it for free.
I can't imagine that the US or Europe are worse in that aspect.

The net access issue was just an example of where a service provider (not ISP) which could be online banking, hardware etc will not support you if you are using linux
 
Old 05-27-2002, 02:20 PM   #22
crashmeister
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Most of that stuff works with Java -last time i checked Java worked with Linux - not on my box; but I'm getting there.
As onlinebanking is concerned - I think you are better off without it anyway. I find it scary as hell that some banks run systems that are anything but safe. A friend I got hacked in the system of one of the biggest german banks in 5 minutes flat and had access to all the accounts there.
 
Old 05-27-2002, 02:42 PM   #23
carpman
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Quote:
Originally posted by crashmeister
Most of that stuff works with Java -last time i checked Java worked with Linux - not on my box; but I'm getting there.
As onlinebanking is concerned - I think you are better off without it anyway. I find it scary as hell that some banks run systems that are anything but safe. A friend I got hacked in the system of one of the biggest german banks in 5 minutes flat and had access to all the accounts there.

Thanks for reply, again i used online banking as an example, it is not that it won't work on linux it that the bank WON'T SUPPORT IT.
 
Old 05-27-2002, 06:41 PM   #24
Calum
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carpman, sorry, i didn't mean to get all confrontational! but still, linux doesn't have to stay being what it was supposedly intended to be. And the issue of third parties not giving you support just by virtue of your choice of OS is not a problem with linux, but with the dumbasses that you get your service from! yes we are on the same side it seems, but we do seem to be standing at slightly different angles to the bigger picture!
 
Old 05-27-2002, 07:13 PM   #25
carpman
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Quote:
Originally posted by Calum
carpman, sorry, i didn't mean to get all confrontational! but still, linux doesn't have to stay being what it was supposedly intended to be. And the issue of third parties not giving you support just by virtue of your choice of OS is not a problem with linux, but with the dumbasses that you get your service from! yes we are on the same side it seems, but we do seem to be standing at slightly different angles to the bigger picture!

Thanks for reply, yes i know linux does not have to stay the same, but its history does affect how it is percieved. Yes i know the failure of some to support linux is not a fault of linux, but while linux is not in the main stream this will remain the case, which goes back to my menu issue and making linux easy for users to change over to.


Anyway no discussion is no fun at all
 
Old 10-17-2002, 04:35 PM   #26
isaidi
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I am confused....

wasn't this thread trying to answer the question of having standardized menu system....


Well i am a new user, oddly enough.... and i was having same problem... coming from windows, where a simple setup file will install the program for you...and register it under a program group in the start menu...or be listed in your add-remove is very comforting.... atleast u can keep track of what you ahve...

now i know some programs u simply extract, no install...and these all go in one directory...and u know where it is....

as for linux you got files all over the place... i know iknow...thats the file system structure....but what bothered me was the concept of keeping track of the installed apps.....

I installed mandrake with alot of packages...my menu was full.... i ran window maker...and was fooling around...and some how lost all my apps in the menus....so fooling around and reading here and there... i found that "menudrake" maintains a master menu for all installed apps...and allows you to standardize it accross different window managers and desktops....however i couldn't find windowmaker in that list......

there was nother script that i found, that rebuilds menus... but that didn't work....

it seems to me that program managment is dependent on distribution..

aren't all the installed packages made record off...thats how u can query them using the RPM...or DEB utility.... is there a similar such menu system that automatically maps to the exectutables of the isntalled apps......I mean that program managment feature doesn't seem to be integrated.... there are many different ways of doing it....

i would expect that after i install standard package...not source tar balls.... i can see it in the program menu...or i can simple run a utility to update the menu's.....

which distribution has the best menu managment system? i have only tried mandrake so far....is debian any better??





P.S please correct me if my conceptual understanding of the menu managment system is wrong!!!
 
Old 10-17-2002, 06:34 PM   #27
crashmeister
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Menu management depends largely on the distro.For me debian does the best job there.Most things get added automatically when you install them.
 
Old 10-18-2002, 09:53 AM   #28
isaidi
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yes....
after regress research i finaly found out how it work...

actually mandrake uses the debian menu managment system

i think i'll post a thread for anyone else that is curoius how it works....cuase i saw a few threads regarding this topic.... and no answers or howtows....

well except the MANDRAKE RPM HOWTO...that kinda helped....


but your right....that debian menu managment system is the best there is..... i would say any intermediate user should be able to figure out how it works.....

i dont know why i was so confused before.....its all clear to me now...

and i think am in love... so much customization power!!!!

infact this menu managment system is the best think i have come across in linux.....

the only problem is to get all the RPM packages to support it...most of them do anywyas....
 
  


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