Is Linux going to work for me?
 

Hi folks,
Don't even know if this is the right place for this, so if not please point me elsewhere.

Now, currently I use Windows XP in extended desktop and so-called Windows Classic modes - can't do with these fancy graphics things. Program wise I use Thunderbird, Firefox (with an occasional foray into IE), Libre Office, Paint Shop Pro, Design Cad 17.2 & Masterfile Professional (a DOS based database). Of these, the first three all have Linux equivalents so no problem there; Paint Shop Pro I don't use that much so don't see any problem changing to The Gimp. However, I do use the last two a lot which does pose problems, however I would be prepared to use DOSEMU or equivalent if it worked satisfactorily, and apparently someone has got Design Cad working under WINE.

I tried SUSE 9.1 some time ago, liked it but didn't proceed any further. Tried SUSE 10.3 but couldn't find any way of using an extended desktop. Am now trying SUSE 12.1 which does do extended desktop, but KDE is absolutely horrible - the version in 9.1 was far better. Am now about to reload to try Gnome.

That's the background, and apologies for the long read. Now for the question.

Given that the DOS program is a must, the CAD program is extremely highly desirable, extended desktop is also very useful and hence almost esential, and I want a simple easy to use desktop suite which will give me a simple menu system for program access and a windowing system similar to Windows Classic, no background, blank screensaver, white text, am I simply bashing my head against a brick wall? Should I be even considering SUSE (I do have three books dating back to v.9.1)? Be honest now.

Regards,

ten0rman

Dosbox ran sc, a DOS/UNIX spreadsheet just fine for me. It also runs Word Perfect 5.1 fine (it seems), and I often use a Norwegian-English dictionary in that emulator too without problems. The command 'keyb' in Dosbox changes keyboard layout in case you need that. Give it a try in XP before you switch to Linux. Dosbox runs fine in XP.

If you want a windowing system similar to Windows Classic then WindowMaker or something. Or use the Redmond or Raleigh themes in Gnome 2.x. WindowMaker isn't terribly easy to use though.

Edit: Unless you like command line. I have a feeling you do though.

While this isn't fundamental to the question, the Gimp is a far more complex/capable program than Paint Shop Pro (from what I know of PSP, maybe it has changed recently); you might find that Krita is a better match (or even Kolour Paint (maybe that's Kolor Paint in US English???)...you might have guessed from all of these random 'K's scattered around the place that they are KDE programs, but the intention is that they will run under other desktops, too.)

Several points:

• Suse 9.1 would have used a kde 3.x desktop by default (although there would have been a lot of other options). Some people do prefer that (less 'eye candy' and less complex...better on low resource computers, for example), and you might find either a version of KDE 3.x or 'Trinity' in repos (Trinity is the ongoing development of the final KDE 3.x code)
• I'm a little surprised that you say the Suse 12.1/KDE is horrible - yes, it is pretty bizarre out of the box, but you can change just about everything about it, so if you have strong opinions about how you like things, you can usually get to where you want to go; maybe you thought that you had better things to do with your life (really, wouldn't blame you if that was the case!)
• You can install more than one desktop at once, I'm not sure that you are aware of this. So you could install KDE 4.x, KDE 3.x, Gnome, XFCE, Windowmaker and a few others simultaneously and choose at login in time which you want to use for a particular session (so, you don't have to re-install to try Gnome, if that is what you are going to do)
• If by 'extended desktop', you mean having several virtual desktops, and switching between them, any KDE, Gnome, XFCE, etc should be able to do that, but if you want to know how to do that under a particular desktop, you'll have to say which desktop you are using; alternatively, you may mean a panning/scrolling' type desktop which extends beyond the limits of the physical screen as a single big desktop; I don't use this myself, but it is rarer, and you'll have to look at fvwm/tvtwm/vtwm (others?) to find this facility

I haven't done this (actually, I don't even know what 'windows classic' is like; there was something for the file manager like this under Windows NT or Win 3.11, but you probably don't mean that) but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't manage it. By 'no background' you mean a blank wallpaper? I have to say that with several virtual desktops in play I like to have different wallpapers on each, so I can easily see which desktop is current, but that's a matter of taste. You might have to create your own blank wallpaper, but probably not - from your selected desktop (Gnome, KDE, at least) have a look at the ability to get new themes and appearance items from Gnome-look and KDE-look; there will probably be something that suits you (although I'll guarantee that at least 95% of the stuff that you see won't be to your taste, as most contributors have objectives diametrically opposite to yours).

With the exception of the CAD program and Masterfile, about which I simply don't know, you don't seem to want anything that is sufficiently out of the ordinary to be impossible. On the other hand, whether you find the effort to get there excessive, or whether you'll like it when you get it is another matter.

If you like the old-style windows and hate KDE, you probably won't like Gnome either. Try Xfce or Mate. The latest version of Mint has Mate and will be supported for 5 years. SalineOS is based on debian and uses Xfce.

Use a live disk and check that you must-have programs will run under Wine. You might have to try several versions: my essential Windows program runs in 1.2.1 but not 1.2.3, 1.3.1 but not 1.3.7, etc! There are Linux CAD programs: see Wikipedia.

Hi, and thanks for the replies.

1. Use of command line.
I have used the DOS command line quite successfully in the past, even when W3x was being used by other people. Amazing how other people were simply not capable/aware of basic DOS commands. Therefore, not fazed by it, although onbiously I would have to learn it. However, let's face it, for normal usage, a GUI does make things easier.

2. Ability to multi-desktop.
No, I was not aware that one can have different desktops without reloading the OS. Which is what I did to try Gnome.

3. Extended desktop.
By this I mean that the two screens act as one super-wide screen and windows (not the OS) can be moved from one screen to the other seamlessly. My main VDU is 1280 x 1024 whilst the secondary VDU is 1280 x 800. In Windows XP, I can move windows from one screen to the other albeit with a loss at either top or bottom but this is easily resized manually as necessary, or if I leave them at a max of 800 x 1024, then there is no need to resize. In addition, as the 800 x 1024 screen is actually the laptop, disconnecting the larger screen causes the main screen effect to immediately revert to the laptop, and whilst I then have to set up the extended desktop again when I reconnect the main screen, this is now not a problem.

In KDE, I found that windows automatically resized when moving from one to the other, possibly a bonus. In Gnome, I found that when set to the correct optimum sizes, the system slowed to a crawl and whilst not exactly unusable, was well on the way to it.

4. KDE & Gnome desktops.
In KDE, I tried down loading alternative wallpapers, but none seemed suitable, and whilst I well appreciate that some people do like fancy things, I don't - I find it distracting and on occasion makes the text difficult to read. As far as I am concerned, black wallpaper and white text is more than adequate - the computer is a tool, not a plaything. Interestingly, my 23 year-old son uses the same and for the same reason, although to be fair he does also have a photo of the current favourite female popstar as well on the screen, but only occupying perhaps half the available area.
Similarly with screen blanking. Here again, the original idea of screen blanking, or screen saver, was to protect CRT's from screen burn and presumably the idea of the moving picture, whatever that may be, would also act as a reminder that the machine was on. As far as I am concerned, a blank, hence black, screen is fully acceptable - I know from the lights that it is switched on.
I have tried to change things with KDE but was unable to easily find out how to do it. I did end up at one stage with black & grey - not very pretty. KDE3.x I found very easy to change to what I liked. Gnome, as I have already said was almost unusable with the correct screen sizes in extended, or non-mirrored, mode.

5. Windows Classic
This refers to, if you know it, the pre-Windows XP desktops which did not use fancy icons with, or even without, tiny lettering. Here again, I prefer to read the text. I also set up all my window displays to give full alphabetic detail as I find it considerably faster to, eg, select Control Panel and rapidly scan down the list to find what I want.

6. Future.
I have now downloaded Linux Mint, Ubuntu & Mandriva, all of which I will be trying. I take the point about the Gimp v. Paint Shop Pro, but something with the name "...Paint" does make me wonder just how basic it actually is.
The reason for keeping DesignCad is that I simply do not wish to attempt to learn another CAD program. I tried once with TurboCad - and never again! This apparently is quite common in that if one learns TurboCad from the off, then it becomes easy, but the other way round is not. And that was my problem in that I started on DraftChoice, a DOS & W3x program, then moved onto DesignCad which has a lot of similarities to DraftChoice. Hence, when I saw that someone had got my version of DesignCad working under WINE, I thought I may be in with a chance.
In fact, the DOS program may be the real killer. Although nominally a DOS program and it is supposedly limited to 25 lines & 80 columns, the program itself does have the ability to provide 43 or 50 lines and can scroll sideways to give 255 columns. Coupled with Windows XP, a 1280 x 1024 VDU and judicious use of Windows based fonts, I can get a very reasonable display on either of the screens. The program itself does all that I want and I see no reason to change to another database program. So provided I can get it to work using a DOS emulator, then ok, but if not....
Final comment is that Windows XP does indeed work 'out-of-the-box' for me. I do not get any BSOD's, or indeed any other problems. Nevertheless, I am well aware of the ever increasing modifications etc to the basic program and that in a few years time I will either have to stick with XP as it finally is, or upgrade to some other Windows versions which will either require a new computer and/or probably contains a load of unwanted fancy garbage which does nothing for the user but inflates Microsoft's bank balance. In short, what I want is a plain, no-frills, reliable GUI shorn of all the dross being inflicted on us. I had hoped that Linux might do just that.

Regards,

ten0rman

Hi,

An update. Been trying Linux Mint. It seems much more user friendly. Think I might persevere a bit more with this one.

Regards,

ten0rman

Yes, this is somehow not apparent to many people, at first, once they have started associating the GUI with the OS they don't 'get it' until someone points it out. In any case, with most Linux distros you can just go into the application installer and select another GUI, and the next time that you log in to the desktop, you get the choice of desktops....even this isn't necessarily apparent, as it is hiding under the name 'session type' or something, so, maybe, you even already have it, but haven't noticed yet.

(Even with Ubuntu...the names make this less apparent, but while, eg, Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu are marketed (?) as if they were separate things, they are not as separate as they seem, because you can always have, say, Ubuntu and select KDE for install and have this choice. This is essentially having both Ubuntu and Kubuntu installed, but in only one OS install, which doesn't sound as if it would be possible.)

You tried going into system settings > application appearance > colours and selected 'get new schemes' and you couldn't find anything even vaguely appropriate? I find it a little difficult to believe, given that as of right now, three or four out of the most recent dozen are dark themes that seem as if they could be amenable to your requirements, eventually.

After that, you go to 'almond'/desktop settings > and set the wallpaper to a colour. (By 'almond', I mean the vaguely swirl shaped, almondy-coloured thing in one of the screen corners.)

So, really, what I expected to hear was 'I found this thing that was vaguely similar to what I want, but I still have to alter this detail...'

Just set no screen saver. Then the screen will go blank when the 'screen saver' kicks in.

Linux will work for you. You already are aware that some things are different in Linux. That is about halfway as compared to other users.

The other part of the way in front of you might give you a hard time but as long as you realize that sometimes you have to put in some effort to get things done for the first time that is ok.

About CAD programs, there are about 40 (if not more) 2D and 3D CAD programs available for Linux in various degrees of compatibility and usability. I haven't tried them all, and the ones I am using for 2D and 3D serve their purpose (my purpose) but are not perfect. There exist also some pay programs which seem to be compatible and get good references.

If you have to run production, keep a virtual machine installed running XP. Over time you will be using it less.

jlinkels

If you want a plain GUI then use some kind of window manager instead of Gnome, KDE or XFCE. However, be advised that those window managers are not very user friendly. So I'm afraid you don't get a plain GUI and user-friendlyness at the same time. Not in my experience. And I have twelve years of experience with Linux.

If you really want that extended desktop and want it to work fine without having to configure xorg yourself, then use KDE and try to sort the other things out. Setting a black background should be possible. Try turning off the background and choosing a background color instead. Try setting a high contrast theme.

As for GUI's, I'd say that's the direction the world is taking. 3D glass effects on my antivirus GUI annoys me as well. Which is why I only use Linux now. And a window manager. However, that means using some programs which even to the Windows 98 user might seem 'ugly', such as ghostview for pdf viewing and midnight commander for a file manager. I think you're better off starting with KDE, then take it gradually from there. At least in KDE your monitor setup is working. And while KDE's control center can be confusing (been there), you'll sure get used to it.

Couldn't agree more.

Although I am still sorry that KDE3 disappeared (it seems to continue its life as KDE3.10 in a project which name I forgot) KDE4 evolved to the point where it reached some usability. If you disable all desktop effects and gadgets, it runs fairly smooth on an AMD 1700 single-core Athlon and an NVIDIA FX5200. If you don't want you don't have to go for a more simple window manager.

That having said, there is definitely no need to stick with "ugly" programs because of your window manager. Programs like Okular for PDF viewing and Krusader run well in XFCE or whatever. I know some consider those bloated, but you have a choice.

jlinkels

It's Trinity:
http://www.trinitydesktop.org/

Or FileRunner. Or X File Explorer. Or Rox Filer. Sorry if I left the impression that Midnight Commander is the only option for a file manager when using a window manager. It was just an example of a file manager that doesn't require hundreds of megs of software to run.

Also, KDE programs are hardly bloated. They just require a lot of libraries which may seem like a bad thing if you're not gonna use KDE and enjoy the integration with the rest of KDE.

Right, let's see if you can easily get me up and running with an easy on the eye desktop.

Here's what I've done so far:

Couldn't see any way of installing KDE when Gnome was already installed. Found somewhere where it said that stuff could be installed, but couldn't find out how to actually do it. I also came across a couple of reviews which were not exactly good about SUSE12.1 so I reloaded with Suse 11.4 + KDE. First thoughts are that it doesn't seem any different to 12.1.

Found the little 'almond' thing - incorrect term by the way, but ne'er mind eh! - hidden away in one corner and thus managed to change the desktop to black. It concerns me that out of the box there is this litle thing tucked away almost hidden in one corner, looking for all the world like a colour malfunction. Crazy! Especially given the basic colour scheme supplied.

Also, found the command to change the screensaver to blank. Presume that's ok but haven't tried it - insufficient time.

Tried to change the panel (?), ie the bar along the bottom of the screen. At present, it's a number of variable shades of grey which does nothing for easy readability. And no, although I may well be getting on a bit, my eyes are still completely satisfactory - for an old 'un that it. No, seriously, there's nothing wrong with them. I did find somewhere to change the Kicker, Kickoff, whatever, icon back to the nice bright blue KDE icon.

So, here's what I want - light grey panel, black writing, small and colourful icons. Can it be done? If so how?

Change the icons on the desktop to brighter colours, and to have white writing. Individual windows to be white or very light grey with black lettering and small but colourful icons if present. Ideas?

With a bit of luck, getting round these hurdles should help towards understanding the system.

One other thing. Tempus is fugitting (sorry you Latin experts) a bit too fast these days, eg I only have limited time available now until a weeks jollies next week. And tonight, Friday night, Saturday afternoon and evening are also out of the question.

Regards,

ten0rman

No one said that worthwhile things were going to be easy...

Here is the generic procedure for any distro: Go to the application installer (with a 'net connection), select the Gnome application for installation, and let it be installed.

In Suse, the visual app installer is part of Yast, but there is also an icon for 'install and remove software', so you don't need to know about Yast. One slight complication is that you might find it difficult to work out which of the things with Gnome in the name is actually Gnome itself and which are packages for Gnome applications for it. So, if you see a 'Gnome window manager' or a 'Gnome window manager meta package' rather than 'music player for Gnome', you'll be on the right track (installing the music player will probably bring in some of the Gnome libraries as dependencies, but not the whole thing, unless some of it is already there).

KDE with 12.1 vs 11.4: that's probably kde 4.8.4 versus 4.7.2, so you wouldn't really expect a massive difference, but 4.8.4 will have some detail refinements and bug fixes. I think (but I'd have to check) that even 4.7.2 is recent enough to have the more recent kwin (post a big rewrite, which made a difference), and that improved smoothness of operation.

There is a big change in how the OS itself starts up, but, if they work, they work (although 12.1 should start up faster).

'Almond' is what people usually call it and is vaguely descriptive - forget the real name... Yes, I rarely like the colour scheme that is the 'default' for any distro. There are 'schemes' and you can an existing scheme to change all of the colours or you can modify one however you like. However, having said that, you should be aware that, if you do decide to modify a colour scheme, your first attempts will inevitably result in some areas in which you have 'dark grey on black' text (or, 'very light grey on off-white') which wouldn't be entirely good for readability.

(What seems is a bit weird to me is that people sometimes select a distro based on the colours that are the defaults, out of the box, or the wallpapers. Odd.)

Changing the colours of almost anything is do-able. Making it workable and likeable is more difficult, but if you are motivated...

As far as the panel is concerned, look at the various themes and one will have something suitable (I quite like transparent and vertical). Then modify the colours...

All this stuff hides in 'system settings', as earlier.

There are many icon sets. Select one that you like, or make your own (I'm sure that there will be a guide for doing this online somewhere, but its not something I've tried - again, there are lots of things in the system that have icons, so just be aware of the amount of work that you'd be taking on if you decide to make icons for everything).

Odd. You can install as many different desktop environments as you want, and choose which one to boot into at your login screen. They can either be installed from the package manager (best way), or terminal commands.

Masterfile looks like abandonware to me, I'd look for a more modern solution that's actually supported and maintained.

Hi all,

Yes, you could say that Masterfile is abandonware.

In fact, the author, John Campbell, retired many years ago, and yes there is no more support. It is an old program with an ancestry dating back to Sinclair Spectrum days which was when the original Masterfile program was built. This program was re-written for DOS, and later completely rewritten, improved and renamed Masterfile Professional (Mpro). Mpro is upwardly compatible with the previous version. I used Masterfile from 1993 to 1999, and Mpro since then. My main usage is as a home accounts database and has now in excess of 20,000 records in it. Neither the earlier, nor the later version have ever failed to work, other than when I have been poking around or not set it up correctly. In short, it does everything that I want and I simply cannot see any reason why I should change for no good reason other than it is outdated.

I would like to say something about myself.

I'm 69, been using computers since 1979, Sinclair Mk14, ZX80, pseudo ZX81, Spectrum, CP/M, DOS, W3x, W95, W98, W2K, WXp, green & black VDU's, CGA (is that correct?) VDU's, and now LCD's, teletype to remote mainframe at 300Baud & upwards, batch job running to the mainframe, dial-up access into mainframes and a local small multi-processor multi-used machine, various types of dot-matrix printers & inkjets. I've programmed in a few dialects of BASIC (and along with a colleague got paid for a suggestion). I've been delving into what I now suspect may have been a UNIX based machine in order to find the BASIC therein. I've written the occasional small code in something similar to the DOS batch commands. I've even had a short spell as the System Manager for a small system. This does not make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination although it's true to say that I do know a lot more than Mr or Mrs Average with a home computer. Nevertheless, I am now at that stage in life when the fancy glittery stuff no longer attracts - I simply don't need it hence my comments above about plain simple desktops.

As I have already said, WXp works fine for me. I do not get BSOD's or indeed any other type of failure. Yes, it's a pain having to take precautions, but it's no big deal, simply an attitude of mind and a regular weekly check. And I quite happily go diving into the registry. Having said all that, the idea of an alternative OS is very intriguing, but if it is going to involve a lot of time to set up, then frankly, at my time of life I've got better things to do. It is my opinion now, that for Linux to make decent inroads into Microsoft's near monopoly (which I would like to see it do), then it is going to have to be able to run out of the box with a simple easily understood interface, otherwise all those people who suggest it is for geeks are going to be proved correct. It needs to be able to install additional programs at least as easily as Windows does, after all how much simpler can you get than stick in a CD, sit back, answer a few questions (perhaps), restart the machine and it's done. I would also point out that I'm typing this using SUSE - and the keyboard repeat doesn't work! Ok, I could find the setting somewhere, but it shouldn't be necessary, certainly Mr & Mrs Average won't be able to find it - if they can be bothered (see below). Incidently, I've just looked for it and found it disabled. Enabled it and all is now ok. Why is it like that? What was the programmer thinking? To my mind, and this isn't only Linux, a lot of so-called programmers are more concerned with showing how clever they are, instead of making sure that the program is user-friendly. A good example I came across recently was with a large bank, where there was a drop-down box of options which a) did not even include the obvious options; and b) they weren't even in alphabetic order. And this is my chief gripe about SUSE. Or rather KDE: it simply is not user friendly, and yes, I am aware that it is customisable.

During the late 1980's and early 1990's, I became involved in setting up some PC's. Ok, they were only running W3x, but I was amazed at the number of installations where the user simply either didn't know, or didn't care, that the default installation was American. They just put up with incorrectly labelled keys. And only the other day, I discovered that a friend of mine had gone and bought Microsoft Office - he did not know about Libre Office! This is what Linux is up against!

With that, I'll shut up. I've had enough of SUSE & Gnome/KDE. I'll try some other distro next. Oh, and there's another thing - jargon. I know what a distro is, but does Mr & Mrs Average?

Regards,

ten0rman

You're making a couple fundamental mistakes in the way you view Linux vs. Windows. First, Windows is a commercial product, aimed at the broadest spectrum of users. It has one publisher, one codebase, and is closed source. Windows is Windows, regardless of what the end users do to it. The source code is closed, not completely documented, and is not available to the general public.

Linux is completely different. First of all, Linux is a kernel, not a complete operating system. The various distros are complete operating systems, but they are all different, all customized, all designed to suit the perceived needs of the intended audience, market, or userbase, whatever it might be. Many distros are designed by one person to their particular interpretation of what an operating system should be. That being said, Linux distributions contain software packages and desktops of many different types, from many different sources, and representing many different philosophies of software and user interface design. It's up to the end user to find what suits them. There are many distributions like Ubuntu, Mint, ZorinOS, PCLinuxOS, etc, that are aimed at novice users and Windows converts. There are many more that are aimed at more advanced users that want more customized systems, more stripped-down systems, or systems specialized for a particular purpose. Your quibbling about small aspects of the interface don't make a lot of sense in the context of Linux, since you could easily change them. You could easily install KDE, Gnome, MATE, XFCE, LXDE, or any number of desktop environments on your SUSE installation and try them out and tweak them to your heart's content, but apparently you'd rather keep trying different distributions randomly, or keep using an woefully outdated version of Windows instead. A little bit of reading and experimentation would go a long way in your case, you obviously know how to install and set up the systems, you just need to figure out how to customize it the way you like. It would also behoove you to just try something different and use some of these different desktops. I used to be very much a KDE person, but I'm now using Gnome 3 and Unity without any issues at all. It just takes an open-minded approach. If you try new things, who knows what you might find that you like?

Don't know whether or not if this will appear anywhere reasonable, but here goes.

A quick trawl through the previous entries will show that I am looking at changing to Linux with the minimum of fuss, palaver, problems etc. And that I have found that certain desktop environments are, well, rubbish in my opinion. Also that I wanted certain facilities.

I have been experimenting and am now more or less settled on Mint with the MATE desktop environment which in general does what I want. I am using v.13 LTS which I will change to v17 LTS when it comes out. In addition I have discovered how to use Oracle VM to load Windows XP thus allowing me to easily use my DOS based database program. (DOSBox/DOSEMU - can't remember which - simply did not give the same facility as does WinXP. Also Wine attempts to force one onto DOSBox/DOSEMU.) Wine appears to work satisfactorily with my CAD program, if not then I can always revert to using it with XP. Paint Shop Pro may work with Wine for what I want, although long term I would wish to transfer to The Gimp once The Gimp allows for the individual sections to be all joined into one big screen as it does for the Windows version. It has to be said that there are problems with Wine & Paint Shop Pro - it all depends how serious these are.

All in all then, I have achieved a reasonable Linux based solution, albeit with some compromises. I am able to use a graphical environment, use WinXP in a virtual machine thus eliminating, or at least severely reducing, the possibility of virus attacks via the notorious Windows holes.

Regards,

ten0rman

"Notorious Windows Holes"? Huh? To be attacked by a virus, you need to download and execute one, something I haven't done in 20 years. If you're talking about browser-based vulnerabilities, they exist in all browsers regardless of OS. WinXP is long past end-of-life, you have no reason to expect it to be either secure or functional. But since you're using Suse 9.1, a distro that is also far outdated and unsupported, I'm not surprised by the contents of your post, but you should educate yourself a little more. Good luck with Mint, it's one of the more solid distros.

In fairness to Redmond: XP will be 100% fully supported through April 2014. By pure coincidence that is the same end-of-life date as my current Mint 14. So in this case, the XP user and the Mint user are in the same boat in terms of longevity of support. Microsoft supports their releases for 10+ years, which is something very few Linux distros have historically accomplished. I think the average lifespan these days for a new Linux distro is less than 6 months. :)

Linux doesn't work for you. You work for linux!

Windows XP is in it's legacy extended support phase now. Only security patches are released, and only on a monthly basis. This is not "100% fully supported" in my opinion.

Perhaps "tombstoning" your machine into a VM might be part of a solution. Then you can have snapshots of it running and rollback if something catastrophic happens + you can easily move it around despite OS and hardware changes.

A little background reading for you

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
http://alternativeto.net/

Maybe I, too, am "close enough to an old phart" ;) to agree with you ... with your sentiment, that is, not necessarily with your conclusions.

Not too many years ago ... you were there, so was I ... the digital computer was an expensive rarity. Now, it's an appliance. And, when that happened, people began to treat computers more-and-more in just that way. There were still "proud, card-carrying geeks" (I've got mine, right here!), but "geeks" became less and less necessary. This trend will only continue. And, it should.

(But that doesn't "doom Linux." Quite the opposite, in fact. And it most-certainly does not "crown Windows," which in my opinion is already yesterday's-news. Read on.)

When the motor-car was young, the rich people who could afford them could also afford to ride with a mechanic, his sturdy box of tools and spares, and a picnic lunch. "When the motor-car was young," you needed that. But Henry Ford changed all of that, giving us not only the cheap-but well-enuf-built car, but also the junkyard. :cool:

Today, computers really are "appliances." They're phones, and tablets, and cheap PC-class equipment. Their owners never change the oil. Never update anything unless the machine updates itself. Learn as little as possible (ideally: nothing, because nothing is required) about how it works. Don't use it efficiently. But, nevertheless, they use it. Papers get written. Emails get sent. Memory-cards full of dumb pictures of you as a six-year old wind up quite regularly in your dropbox, courtesy of your aunt.

Most(!) of those machines, by numbers, today run Linux, or else Unix (OS/X = iOS). But, their users neither know nor care. Their attitude is quite properly what it always should have been: What you said to them is perfectly true. (Your phone probably runs Linux.) But, they do not care, because they do not wish to have to care, and because a well-engineered "appliance" does not oblige them to care.

A modern car is probably the most computerized thing you're ever likely to encounter. But you don't have to think about anything with regards to computers in order to drive it. (In fact ... *SCREECH* :eek: Look Out! You damn fool, stop texting!!" ... you don't have to think about anything at all.)

I like to think that every computer programmer's ultimate mission should be to work himself or herself out of a job. To do things so well, and so very seamlessly well, that: "It Just Works.™" If you want an "app," you just tap a few buttons and ... presto, there it is ... and it Works. "No Geeks Required."

(And, mind you, "it takes Highest Geek-dom" do achieve that. To make it look ... to be ... "easy." But do not expect recognition. If you get recognition, then: "Padewan, there is a Higher Level Yet, that you have not yet Attained." :jawa:

guyonearth,

I'm not using Suse9.1. Never have apart from a limited experimental mode. Perhaps I need to update my particulars.

Also, whilst XP may be an ancient OS, it works, and, provided one takes care, works well and doesn't readily succumb to nasties. Like you, I have never had a nasty in all the 25 years or so that I've been using Windows & DOS.

For the future, I aim to set up Mint v.17 when it arrives. If, as I understand it, it will be supported until 2020, then if I am still "compos mentis" (I will be 77) I may well update to whatever the latest LTS version is.

lantzvillian,

Whether its "tombstoning" or not is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. What IS important, is that I can accomplish a changeover to Linux relatively easily, and with a minimum of re-learning. I have absolutely no doubt that given sufficient time, I can become just as proficient in Linux as anyone else - but I don't have that time. And that is the important point, time, or lack of it. Don't forget, I've had almost 25 years of using Windows and learning it. If I'm lucky, I should have another 10 years before mental/physical deterioration fully sets in. If I'm very lucky, possibly 15 years. And if I get 20 years, then I'll consider myself blessed indeed. Therefore, the objective is to get away from what is to become an unsupported system by whatever means possible at least cost to myself. And so far, it looks as if I will be using Firefox, Thunderbird, Libre Office Writer and Libre Office Calc just as I do now, whilst Design Cad Pro v.17.2 and Paint Shop Pro 7.04 will work satisfactorily via Wine and Masterfile Professional (the DOS based database) will work very well indeed via a stripped down version of Windows XP working as a guest system with no internet access (hence little or no chance of any nasties). This only leaves a Self-Assessment tax calculation program which may work via Wine, but if not, should work via XP.

salasi,
Read your offerings. Don't understand the second one, but agree in some respects with the first.

sundialsvs,
I really do regret the fact that modern cars are computer controlled as this prevents me from doing my own repairs and maintenance. Not that I would at my age, but I don't like it. I also regret the fact that my 1998 caravan also has some electronic gadgetry in it which appears to be designed to prevent people from flattening the car battery. Apart from the fact that the provided circuit diagram does not appear to work, I am quite capable of looking after my own electrical equipment, and I don't need looking after like this, especially after spending 35 years in an electric/electronic environment.

The point is that I have now got a working OS with a hybrid solution for my must have programs which does not involve me spending years learning how to use new programs. In effect, I've done this with little or no help from the various forums. To be fair, I can understand why some people are taking the attitude that they do: I would suggest that to those people, the computer is a hobby, whereas nowadays, I simply want it as a tool.

Regards,

ten0rman

An update.
First of all, I have two systems, named main & backup for obvious reasons. Initial experimenting was done on the backup system.
Linux Mint v.17 didn't work properly on my main system so I've remained on v.13.
As expected no problems with Firefox, Thunderbird, Libre Office Calc & Libre Office Writer.
Design Cad Pro v.17.2 working via Wine did not work properly on the main system. Reverted to Design Cad 2000 which worked a lot better so have now standardised on that.
Paint Shop Pro is now working reasonably well after having had to set up a Workspace which has to be loaded manually.
Mpro, the DOS based database, works ok via Oracle Virtual Box & WinXP except that it stutters when scrolling. Using Mpro via DosEmu is better in that scrolling is dead smooth with no scrolling. Unfortunately, despite using "Speed" to set DosEmu as fast as possible, Mpro searching is slower than via Virtual Box/XP. Nevertheless, overall DosEmu is reasonably usable and doesn't need to go through 2 stages before I can do any work.

Overall, then, I now have a reasonably working Linux system which meets all my requirements.

Regards,

ten0rman

Interesting discussion - am new here, and to Linux so excuse late reply
 

I find sundialsvcs summary very fitting and true.

Some of us want to "tinker" and some of us want to simply use the computer with whatever O.S. or system works for us.

I used to like to tinker, wrote over 50 shareware programs for MSDOS and early Windows, some code for a BBS service, and helped many people with their computer issues.

But...I mostly use my computers now as tools and don't want to tweak this or that or have to spend hours learning. I tired of programming partly cause as soon as I felt I was getting a handle on things everything would change. I suspect my patience is not what it used to be either.

However I have become increasingly unhappy with MS and vow to never upgrade to Win 10 (currently have 2 desktops running Win7 and inherited one with Win 8), and so am testing the waters with Linux (Ubuntu at the moment). When MS decided to try to force us to upgrade to 10 that was what decided it for me, nevermind the privacy issues.

I mostly edit videos, photos which is plenty to learn without having to also learn how to tweak the O.S. in order to do so or to do the other common things people do... surf and do things online.

So other than a few buggy events I think Ubuntu may work for me, I just wish there were more software available, and maybe there will be seeing how unhappy even the MS tech people are with W10