I like that idea excellent point, haha no rebutle :) ... except here's the thing, how does the Linux community grow, when people use all the linux programs they want on windows b/c of the Lina project ? ... therefore, the advanced user will keep windows b/c he has it (let's face it most of us do) and he can play with the linux stuff from there... i hope my point is understandable....

There are two sides to this fence. Basically, what you're saying about users being able to use Linux software on Windows, has been being done with CYGWin and the such. And the opposite has been true with Wine, DOSEmu, etc. for Linux users. Sounds like you're saying it's ok if we (Linux users) do it, but as soon as a Windows user does it, it's bad.

You are correct, though that we do want to expose more people to Linux. The word is out in the technological community, and they are coming. Vendors like Dell may be a help, or a hinderance, depending on how they handle purchasing and support for Linux customers.

As far as my previous comments about virtualisation, it was more on virtualization of the OS than of any particular application.

Ha! I just took a cursory look at Wubi (http://www.cutlersoftware.com/ubuntu...-US/index.html)

Looks like it installs a virtualizer of some sort, then Ubuntu within that. This is good, as perspective users would be able to test Linux out, as I said in earlier posts.

I don't have Windows. I did download a free Beta version of Vista back when they were giving them away, but it didn't stay on my HD for too long. Furthermore, I wouldn't 'play with Linux stuff' from within Windows, even if I did have it installed.

Your fears are unfounded.

vmware player is free.
http://www.vmware.com/download/player/

Vmware server is free
http://www.vmware.com/download/server/

Vmware Converter used to convert your RUNNING windows machine to a vmware image is FREE as well
http://www.vmware.com/download/converter/

There are other options as well.. such as XEN
http://www.xensource.com/files/xen_install_windows.pdf

so saying there are no available free alternative options to go the other way is just silly..

Ok, it seems clear that most of you believe that virtualization and portation of linux or apps to windows is not going to affect linux, and it has been said that the people who move to linux are only those that are more than average users has that not been said? ,... so in a slight change of topic, trying to keep it related to the title in a way, linux is not going to grow in the market?, that is a derivation, or implication, that can be made from the "definition" of average user, and the idea that the average user is not going to use linux... i have seen posts or threads arguing that linux IS ready for the world, but is it really? If only people who like linux now are going to use linux then what is the point in promoting it? now, is there a way, to let people know of the alternative, get the average person having linux as the alternative they deserve?... Dell helps, but it is not helping SO MUCH, i have heard reports that yes the computers that come with linux are cheaper, but when the hardware is compared it is inferior hardware... of course linux will probably run just as fast as the windows box with the lesser specs, is this not a rip off ? dell is earning from linux, using free software, selling at equal price of windows box with higher specs, therefore dell is earning the money by using inferior hardware, and no cost of operating system... is this not true? so.... all in all, who is going to come to linux? does linux have a future?, I honestly hope it does as i do enjoy linux, but i just want to see it make a stand, a way for it to stand out... well i shall stop blabbling, thanks for the comments, and entertaining posts, as this thread continues :)

Also - Is there not other situations were the inverse of something good is bad? it is good (for linux) to virtualize windows = it is good for linux to be virtualized under windows

it is bad to kill = it is good to kill ... just as a lousy example, hope my point is made,

Here are your choices:
1. Blow away an entire Windows install, which will probably not be good for a beginner.
2. Try to configure dual boot, which probably involves resizing and creating new partitions. Tampering with partitions without knowing what you're doing is dangerous.
3. Install a virtualizer like VMWare on Windows, then install Linux within that.

My choice for a beginner would be #3. He can be eased into Linux, with minimal chance of damage to his current software, and with minimal need to purchase new hardware.

I think Linux will continue to grow, because 1) more and more people are become above average users. So you end up with more potential Linux users there. 2) Companies are starting to use Linux. If average users have to use Linux at work, then may prefer to use Linux at home. 3) Dell offer machines with Linux means the average user might decide to try it. A lot of average users don't comprehend hardware, so whether or not the hardware is worse than the Windows machine's hardware is not going to matter to them.

I don't really want to see Linux be the number one used OS. There are a lot of issues with being number one. If everyone uses Linux, then all the people who produce viruses and malware are going to focus on Linux. Linux will end up having to continuously patch areas of code that no one thought was venerable. I feel like Linux would end up with the similar issues as MS has with virus and software. It would be interesting to see what would happen, but I don't think being number one is really all that great of a thing.

You are correct that Linux would become more of a target if it had more population. However, I believe that due to the security infrastructure and community software support, Linux is inherently much more secure, and will be more difficult to crack.

I'm confused I thought wubi was a way to install ubuntu through windows, not to run linux in windows, and stuff like vmware has been around for years

Hmmm, you just made me wonder,... does wubi make ubuntu work under windows, or completely seperate? ... maybe i should test it on my windows.... haha nice :)
..... if it is number 2 it can only be a good thing

I didn't bother looking at the site until now. :P It installs Ubuntu to a folder and makes it think that that is its partition. It seems to use Windows own bootloader. It is meant for easy install and uninstall. I'd much rather have it on its own real partition, but it seems like it would be useful for someone who just wants to try it or someone who is intimidated by partitioning and OS installs.

So a noob way to try out Ubuntu ? no messing with bios bootloader or anything.... at the end of this thread i find myself saying Wubi is cool :)

Linux is the future, no question
 

This issue that's been raised about "average users" is an interesting one as far as the future of Linux is concerned. I see two groups who will be most likely to migrate to Linux: corporations and "average users". Corporations have the resources to make the migration, to learn the OS and train users, to adapt/replace their apps, and they have the motivation since Windows OS, servers, groupware, and apps are all costing them big bucks, and finally, their user collaborations are largely in-house. "Average users" buy a turnkey computer and use what's on it. If vendors such as Dell, Gateway, HP/Compaq, etc. start selling and supporting turnkey machines with Linux OS and apps, the average user will buy and use them. (And Vista is making more people receptive to moving away from Windows, people like my friend who bought 2 Dell laptops and the drivers didn't drive.) (BTW, I believe these groups will buy shrink-wrapped apps to run on Linux; I would happily run all my same apps on Linux, and for that matter, would feel more secure doing so.)
The hobbyists, of course, have already switched. The gamers will go wherever the games and speed are. That leaves people like me, tech-savvy SOHO users who want to switch but are married to Windows apps and Windows-driven hardware and who need to be up and running all the time (thus can't afford the downtime to migrate--will have to hit the ground running with the new OS). As the vendors provide "average users" with Linux and corporate users pressure the vendors, the path will be paved for people like me. (And now-free VMWare Server may enable me to overcome my hurdles.)
Meanwhile, I think that any exposure people can be given to Linux will only further the revolution. Mr. Gates, can you say, "Microsoft Office for Linux"?

Not exactly. The installer runs on windows but once installed Wubi is a compleate dual-boot setup and it does not have any dependency on Windows. It behaves exactly as a "real" installation. The main technical difference is that Linux is installed inside of a file as opposed to being installed inside of a dedicated partition. Such file can sit inside an ntfs folder, but just as well inside of ext3, reiser, or any other filesystem.

Wubi is split into back-end and front-end. Do not confuse the two. The back-end is what makes everything happen and it is platform independent. The front-end is used to download the ISO and gather the installation settings. So you can have multiple front-ends targeting Windows (Wubi), Linux (Lubi), and even mac (Mubi), all using the same back-end.

Wubi is a disruptive technology and as such it does not fit well with traditional schemes. Wubi fills the big gap that lays between a Demo (LiveCD or VM) and a real installation. Like a demo it is very easy and safe to install/uninstall/try. Like a real installation it gives you full HW access, full speed (except for HD I/O) and identical behaviour. And while demo and real installation are 2 completely separate setups (even if they come on the same medium), Wubi provides a progressive approach that allows you to start with a very easy but very useful installation that can then be "upgraded" smoothly to a dedicated partition.

Wubi allows you to:

1) Try Ubuntu at (almost) full speed
2) Actually use Ubuntu for real for days and weeks, with a full dual boot setup
3) If you like what you see, you can migrate your settings to a dedicated partition via LVPM.
4) If you do not like what you see, you can uninstall cleanly and revert the system to its previous state.

This is an install-then-try approach rather than the try-then-install approach of the live CD. Wubi way is arguably more captivating than a Live CD, it offers far better performance than a Live CD, it allows you to actually use your system (read save your files and install software),and since there is no ISO to burn and there are no BIOS issues it is easier to use than a Live CD. Moreover, the partitioning/bootloader bit is optional and it can be deferred until the user has accumulated enough goodwill. This alone is a major change in the installer arena.

So will it change things for Linux? I really hope so. This might be the next revolution in Linux installers, similar to what the introduction of LiveCD did a few years ago'. I would not be too surprised if we will see such approach reimplemented by other distros soon. And in fact Wubi will be incorporated within Ubuntu for the next release (7.10).

One last thing: this is probably the first ever 1-click OS installer: enter the password and click "install". It does not get any easier than that. It smokes any other OS installer out there, and you can put in the basket all other Linux distros, Vista, XP, Mac, BSD, you name it... So yes it's a revolution.