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Old 02-18-2014, 05:47 PM   #106
cynwulf
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I'm happy to leave you to your three systemd threads - have a nice time.
 
Old 02-18-2014, 06:16 PM   #107
unSpawn
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From now on please keep posts on topic, constructive and free from anything that doesn't contribute to the topic at hand or that could be construed as incitive, condescending, childish or anything else non-technical or comms-wise we could do without. Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:17 PM   #108
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
That's a valid point, but it doesn't really change that shuttle said they're going to systemd, so shuttle changing his mind is possible - but would be a u turn on his part. For me, his blog clearly says that they are following Debian and moving to systemd and he talks about upstart in the past tense.
Section highlighted by me. I don't doubt that to you, and many others, this is as clear as day but knowing Shuttleworth's/Canonical's history and this
Quote:
but I will ask the Ubuntu tech board (many of whom do not work for Canonical) to review the position and map out appropriate transition plans.
says to me that it is not set in stone. Again, we should wait and see.

With regards to Debian, if Debian does what Debian does best (making an incredibly stable system) and systemd doesn't cause the sky to fall in then there is really no harm done and all the anti-systemd argument is just alarmist rhetoric.
 
Old 02-18-2014, 06:47 PM   #109
vl23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unSpawn View Post
From now on please keep posts on topic, constructive and free from anything that doesn't contribute to the topic at hand or that could be construed as incitive, condescending, childish or anything else non-technical or comms-wise we could do without. Thanks in advance.
And if, as it was the case with several of my previous posts, the post in question is merely a reply to another post that makes a non-technical and/or non-systemd related post?
 
Old 02-18-2014, 09:40 PM   #110
ReaperX7
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Vl23... Right now the best solution for you might be FreeBSD. The new pkgng (pkg) system works very and well and FreeBSD has a good list of ready to use packages pre-built on the FTP ready for usage. 10, is really nice and straight forward.

Give it a good thorough testing and see if you like it.

You should probably also look into a big brand UNIX like Oracle Solaris 11.1. You'll have to register on Oracle website, but Solaris is free to use for personal computer usage. They have a nice Live disk for 11.1 also.
 
Old 02-19-2014, 07:07 AM   #111
vl23
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Vl23... Right now the best solution for you might be FreeBSD. The new pkgng (pkg) system works very and well and FreeBSD has a good list of ready to use packages pre-built on the FTP ready for usage. 10, is really nice and straight forward.
I have experimented with a number of different FreeBSD versions in the past, I really like it, but short to mid-term I will probably be running with Gentoo,FBSD is what I use for a number of tasks at home on my Raspberry Pi.
And yeah, longterm it will probably become my main desktop OS, or Dragonfly BSD if I like it, I've always liked the microkernel concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
Give it a good thorough testing and see if you like it.
Certainly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperX7 View Post
You should probably also look into a big brand UNIX like Oracle Solaris 11.1. You'll have to register on Oracle website, but Solaris is free to use for personal computer usage. They have a nice Live disk for 11.1 also.
I've worked extensively with a number of the commercial UNIXEN that are still alive, out of all of them I like IBM AIX the best even if it uses the ODM and binary logging, sadly it is POWER only, thanks to Itanium HP-UX is probably dead, as to Solaris, my personal experiences with that OS have been mixed, I will grant you SMF is better than systemd and it did have a number of excellent tools, but a lot of them just don't behave the way they should on x86 and even during the Sun days the OS needed some major work, and that is before Oracle took over and most of the old developers decided to quit.
Also considering what Oracle's business strategy is, dump the x86 hardware business in favor of engineered SPARC systems and a SPARC-based cloud, I doubt that they will be as good with the support and development for the x86 version of Solaris as they are with the SPARC one.
Also I have a very negative opinion of Oracle overall.

Last edited by vl23; 02-19-2014 at 07:09 AM.
 
Old 02-20-2014, 04:41 PM   #112
unSpawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vl23 View Post
And if, as it was the case with several of my previous posts, the post in question is merely a reply to another post that makes a non-technical and/or non-systemd related post?
Then you still should let common sense, netiquette and restraint prevail no matter what.

BTW the Debian forum doesn't really cover the direction this discussion has been heading to for some time so I've moved it to Linux General instead.
 
Old 02-20-2014, 06:20 PM   #113
sgage
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this thread bodes ill...

This thread is an example why I do not want to associate myself with the "Open Source 'Community'" (as if there were such a thing). The incredible negativity towards whatever new thing one doesn't happen to like is just disgusting. If you don't like it, let it be. It's not like there aren't any options. But why the constant tearing down? It really is disgusting. It goes way beyond technology ideas and debate. Let's talk technicalities. Why not discuss why you do or don't you care for systemd? All I get here is a bunch of useless snarling. Also fanboi politics. It's so juvenile. Good-bye.

Last edited by sgage; 02-20-2014 at 06:23 PM.
 
Old 02-20-2014, 08:33 PM   #114
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@sgage: Nice beating of a straw-man plus argumentum ad hominem. Found nothing useful in your post.
 
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:09 PM   #115
vl23
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This thread is an example why I do not want to associate myself with the "Open Source 'Community'" (as if there were such a thing).
It really depends on your definition of "community" if by community you mena something ran by a central authority that jumps and sings whenever some group of developers decides to reinvent the wheel, then I guess there is no community.
I honestly prefer my own definition, a loosely connected people that like to tinker with the same free and openly available software, and occasionally cooperate when they have similar goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsn View Post
@sgage: Nice beating of a straw-man plus argumentum ad hominem. Found nothing useful in your post.
Thank you sir!

So I did try out DraonFlyBSD, and I think that the install process is a bit smoother than FreeBSD's I might tinker a bit with HAMMER, and I will install ReactOS on a VM at some point soon, my experiments with Gentoo are going smoothly, if a bit slower than I expected.
 
Old 02-22-2014, 09:51 AM   #116
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgage View Post
This thread is an example why I do not want to associate myself with the "Open Source 'Community'" (as if there were such a thing). The incredible negativity towards whatever new thing one doesn't happen to like is just disgusting. If you don't like it, let it be. It's not like there aren't any options. But why the constant tearing down? It really is disgusting. It goes way beyond technology ideas and debate. Let's talk technicalities. Why not discuss why you do or don't you care for systemd? All I get here is a bunch of useless snarling. Also fanboi politics. It's so juvenile. Good-bye.

I disagree with the above post entirely. There is a community and the evidence is all over, not the least of which is right here at LQ. "Community" does not require being homogenous. In fact, history shows that communities tend to benefit from sruggle, as do individual human beings. If you want Life to be easy then accept you will become fat and dull as a result.

It is exactly the diminishing options that alarms many, especially after systemd swallowed udev which make it substantially harder to avoid. Who would have guessed that Debian and even Ubuntu would fall and so quickly? Maybe it is because they are in the business of seeing "the writing on the wall" as to what is going to be required to remain viable in anything more than a marginal way.

While I partly agree that there is considerable snarling, what can a person expect in matter like these? People have passions regarding things especially things that represent hundreds if not thousands of hours of work that could mostly become obsolete and useless in a stroke and still NOBODY has shown any major advantage to support such a loss/investment. Don't even mention boot times because that is mostly useless especially when more rebooting is required as a condition.

The only thing I've seen of any value, and still not with complete clarity, is that some binary logs can be indexed, parsed, and outputted in useful ways. So far it just seems a bad tradeoff which makes me even more suspicious as to why it is being adopted so quickly by so many.

Hopefully the answers are soon forthcoming when RHEL 7 hits the streets and maybe the skids.
 
Old 02-23-2014, 10:26 AM   #117
vl23
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Hopefully the answers are soon forthcoming when RHEL 7 hits the streets and maybe the skids.
Hopefully Microsoft, Oracle and IBM hit new revenue records when that happens for their Windows Server and Azure, Oracle Cloud and Solaris engineerd systems, and POWER systems with AIX respectivelly

Also, look what I just found:

http://www.mtier.org/news/compliantbsd-5.4-released/

A corporate Desktop solution based around OpenBSD, they also apparently managed to get GNOME 3 to work without systemd, I really hope this is just their first step towards a larger push into the corporate server market and the cloud

Also this:

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=139245772023497&w=2

Remind me again, wasn't one of the reasons some of the sysd crowd wanted X.org integration(really the only real reason IMO, since seats in the age of laptops, tablets and BYOD sounds worse than useless.) was because it could make running X as non-root possible.
Sounds like the *BSDs are where Linux wishes to be an year from now, hopefully at some point somebody will manage to force Pottering to eat all his anti-BSD and anti-UNIX propaganda as Red hat is pushed out of the market and forced to lay off the dead wood.
 
Old 02-23-2014, 09:31 PM   #118
replica9000
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I wonder if it would be possible to make a dummy package of systemd to satisfy depends, and import OpenRC from Gentoo. Then use custom packages that use dpkg-divert to use Gentoo's init scripts to override Debian's systemd init scripts. Sure that sounds much easier than it really is though.
 
Old 02-23-2014, 10:25 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by vl23 View Post
Sounds like the *BSDs are where Linux wishes to be an year from now, hopefully at some point somebody will manage to force Pottering to eat all his anti-BSD and anti-UNIX propaganda as Red hat is pushed out of the market and forced to lay off the dead wood.
Beside selling RHEL Red Hat does also sell support and service for other Linux distributions. So having them all look like a copy of Fedora is making their life easier and increasing profit. They found a way to enforce this by using systemd and their control over the freedesktop.org. The next logical step would be the integration of RPM package management into systemd, to get rid of dpkg, pacman etc. altogether.
 
Old 02-24-2014, 08:03 AM   #120
replica9000
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Beside selling RHEL Red Hat does also sell support and service for other Linux distributions. So having them all look like a copy of Fedora is making their life easier and increasing profit. They found a way to enforce this by using systemd and their control over the freedesktop.org. The next logical step would be the integration of RPM package management into systemd, to get rid of dpkg, pacman etc. altogether.
Why would anyone want to integrate the package manager into the init system? I couldn't see Debian ever giving up dpkg for RPMs...
 
  


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