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Old 02-13-2014, 11:45 AM   #16
vl23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replica9000 View Post
Mint is based on Ubuntu, and there's also Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE).

I've compared minimal installs with Debian and Ubuntu using debootstrap. I don't like Ubuntu's defaults, or that it tries to force Unity on you.
Yeah, I know, among other things, hence the Upstart coment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
I see at least two posts musing about switching to Buntu or Mint. Those derivatives are slightly modified Debian. If Debian switches to systemd, how likely would it be that the folks at Comical and Mint would invest the effort to change the initial system on all those thousands of Debian packages they use? They survive by letting Debian developers do all the work. That is unlikely to change. Where Debian goes, Buntu and Mint have little choice but to follow.
Actually no, the don't, Ubuntu has been using its own init syste for quite some time now, as a number of posters have pointed out, it has also made a number of other changes like Unity, and is trying to get rid of X via way of Mir, another purely Canonical project.
Ubuntu also suffers from a major case of not invented here where Upstart replacements are concerned.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 09:02 PM   #17
ReaperX7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syg00 View Post
+1.
Fedora and Arch seem to have made it work - just something else to learn.

(Note I have never used native Debian, just commenting from the sidelines here)
Yes, but Arch did so with a heavy hand that allowed for no room to maneuver around the inclusion and switch to systemd. They had loads of issues for the longest time, with a lot of pro-systemd anti-alternative-init rhetoric as well.

Fedora did it because their developers can't write scripts, and they're a Red Hat project and guess who works for Red Hat??? Need I say more.

Making anything work takes time, but you have to have a stable foundation.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 10:19 PM   #18
Randicus Draco Albus
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You may be, and probably are, right. Given Buntu's desire to have a unique GUI and changing some file locations, their hopes of replacing Xorg with their unique creation, and who knows what other delusions of grandeur, it would not surprise me if they also want or already use their own initial system. But if Debian changes a core part of the system, would Buntu and Mint be able to ignore it? It is wrong to assume Buntu and Mint would roll merrily on without Debian's course affecting their own. Especially Mint, which has already started deviating away from Buntu and towards riding Debian's coat tails.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 10:43 PM   #19
replica9000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
You may be, and probably are, right. Given Buntu's desire to have a unique GUI and changing some file locations, their hopes of replacing Xorg with their unique creation, and who knows what other delusions of grandeur, it would not surprise me if they also want or already use their own initial system. But if Debian changes a core part of the system, would Buntu and Mint be able to ignore it? It is wrong to assume Buntu and Mint would roll merrily on without Debian's course affecting their own. Especially Mint, which has already started deviating away from Buntu and towards riding Debian's coat tails.
As stated earlier, Ubuntu has been using upstart while Debian was continuing to use sysvinit. As more time passes, the less in common Ubuntu shares with Debian. Mint builds their release's on both an Ubuntu repository, and a Debian repository. Most Debian derivatives today are either going to be Ubuntu based or pure Debian based.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 11:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
You may be, and probably are, right.
I am right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
Given Buntu's desire to have a unique GUI and changing some file locations, their hopes of replacing Xorg with their unique creation, and who knows what other delusions of grandeur, it would not surprise me if they also want or already use their own initial system. But if Debian changes a core part of the system, would Buntu and Mint be able to ignore it? It is wrong to assume Buntu and Mint would roll merrily on without Debian's course affecting their own. Especially Mint, which has already started deviating away from Buntu and towards riding Debian's coat tails.
I can understand criticising Ubuntu and Canonical when it is warranted (their contract for instance) but lets get real here. There is Ubuntu code in Debian, if you don't believe me just look at software sources gui in Wheezy, and I think it is even in Squeeze, where it asks you if you want to be notified of new version of Ubuntu. Screenshot attached for your perusal. As to your question would Ubuntu be able to ignore it? I believe yes but Debian is finding it harder to ignore Ubuntu. Do I like that? No, but life happens. Ubuntu and Debian are at a stage were one cannot do without the other. So many DDs are UDs as well. Debian has given Ubuntu the tools and packaging system to use but Ubuntu has the staff to be able to get source packages and created customised deb packages and in fact they do this for translation through Launchpad. Ubuntu builds its own version of the kernel, has its own gui front to Gnome, is building its own xorg replacement, Debian uses its own build of the Kernel but everything else is customised from upstream (some of which has become Ubuntu upstream).

With regards to Mint think of it this way, how many versions do they produce that are based on Ubuntu? How many are based on Debian? LMDE started out a great idea (got to give Ikey credit where it is due) but it is a mere shadow of what it was. It started out a rolling release now it is a stop and start release with the idea of "update packs" stopping the rolling idea. This tells me Mint hasn't got the manpower it used to have.
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Last edited by k3lt01; 02-13-2014 at 11:13 PM.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 11:33 PM   #21
Randicus Draco Albus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
There is Ubuntu code in Debian, if you don't believe me just look at software sources gui in Wheezy, and I think it is even in Squeeze, where it asks you if you want to be notified of new version of Ubuntu.
I have seen many references to that bug on the biggest Debian forum. I have never seen it, because I do not use Synaptic and Software Centre. Although those Comical products are available, they are not important enough for Debian's developers to worry about. So the Ubuntu name remains.

Quote:
Ubuntu and Debian are at a stage were one cannot do without the other.
Debian cannot live without Ubuntu? I shall just agree to disagree on that idea.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 11:46 PM   #22
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
I have seen many references to that bug on the biggest Debian forum. I have never seen it, because I do not use Synaptic and Software Centre. Although those Comical products are available, they are not important enough for Debian's developers to worry about. So the Ubuntu name remains.
It is something that I do find annoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
Debian cannot live without Ubuntu? I shall just agree to disagree on that idea.
You're allowed to disagree however when you look at the swing of the pendulum with what distro has more influence on the other I think you'll have to acknowledge Ubuntu does have a great deal of influence on Debian but Debian doesn't have as much on Ubuntu. I believe, and this to me is a sad indictment on the Linux Ecosystem, that money (i.e. wages) and influence through market share has created a situation where Ubuntu (through Canonical) has way to much sway in Debian. This may be one reason the CTTE has gone for systemd rather than something like upstart.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 12:01 AM   #23
Randicus Draco Albus
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The content of your post needs a little clarification. Ubuntu, neither its size nor money (directly) influence Debian. Ubuntu's influence come from some of Comical's developers "moonlighting" as Debian developers. (A case of money indirectly affecting the object.)

If Shuttleworth decided that Ubuntu was not generating enough money and shut down the project, Debian would continue, and continue in a better direction. If Debian disappeared, would Buntu survive? Probably not.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 01:19 AM   #24
k3lt01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
The content of your post needs a little clarification.
Not it doesn't. I said what I meant and I meant what I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
Ubuntu, neither its size nor money (directly) influence Debian.
This is another instance where you will have to agree to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
Ubuntu's influence come from some of Comical's developers "moonlighting" as Debian developers. (A case of money indirectly affecting the object.)
So people like Shuttleworth and Jackson weren't DDs before they were UDs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
If Shuttleworth decided that Ubuntu was not generating enough money and shut down the project, Debian would continue, and continue in a better direction.
This statement alone agrees with what I am saying. Continuing in a better direction without Ubuntu certainly indicates a great deal of influence from Ubuntu on Debian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
If Debian disappeared, would Buntu survive? Probably not.
I can't see why it wouldn't. We know Ubuntu has the infrastructure and the ability to develop packages from upstream sources, we know they have the infrastructure (Launchpad) for community involvement, we know they have people who will do free work for them and sign it over without question.

We, both of us, are just going to have to agree to disagree cause you're not going to change my opinion and I'm not even attempting to change yours.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 07:19 AM   #25
vl23
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Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post

We, both of us, are just going to have to agree to disagree cause you're not going to change my opinion and I'm not even attempting to change yours.
Let us look at the facts objectively, shall we.

One, Ubuntu and its derivative Mint outpace Debian on distrowatch, they have a larger install base, this could also be deduced from the various popcon statistics.

Two, Ubuntu, and by extension Mint, have better funding thanks to Shuttleworth/Canonical/ and by way of donations from a user base which we can reasonably assume is larger and the Ubuntu brand is better known than Debian.
Don't like it, tough, because Linux needs to be commercially viable to survive, just look at who the Linux FOundation gold members are, how they or their employees contribute to Linux and how much money they give to the project and make from it.

Three, a sub-argument of two really but important enough to warrant its own paragraph, Ubuntu and Mint actually come pre-installed on A LOT of systems from major vendors, Debian doesn't, and as Linus himself said it, one of the main problems with desktop Linux adoption is the fact that Linux just doesn't come pre-installed.

Four, coupling, a lot of the various Debian and Ubuntu "packages" were never developed by either group, but rather created by various third parties and just built so that they can run better with the rest of the respected distribution, now systemd's APIs and other garbage might be an issue here, but a lot of the applications and daemons are actually supposed to run on other UNIXEN, both commercial and not.
Also there is the possibility of forking off stuff and using things like the udev replacements from busybox or gentoo, and even porting stuff from FreeBSD.

having more engaged developers might be important, but not as important as one would think, soame goes for having the mother distribution use systemd or not.

IMO Ubuntu and Mint have enough muscle and enough alternatives to survive, finally there will be a number of advanced users and developers unhappy with this adoption which will move to other projects, maybe not that many will move to Ubuntu or Mint directly, but their efforts will likely benefit them in some way while their departure will be a net minus to Debian.

Last edited by vl23; 02-14-2014 at 07:24 AM.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 08:02 AM   #26
m.a.l.'s pa
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Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
There is Ubuntu code in Debian, if you don't believe me just look at software sources gui in Wheezy, and I think it is even in Squeeze, where it asks you if you want to be notified of new version of Ubuntu. Screenshot attached for your perusal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
I have seen many references to that bug on the biggest Debian forum. I have never seen it, because I do not use Synaptic and Software Centre. Although those Comical products are available, they are not important enough for Debian's developers to worry about. So the Ubuntu name remains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k3lt01 View Post
It is something that I do find annoying.
It isn't something I've ever lost any sleep over. I'm not losing any sleep over Debian going with systemd, either.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 08:16 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vl23 View Post
Let us look at the facts objectively, shall we.

One, Ubuntu and its derivative Mint outpace Debian on distrowatch, they have a larger install base, this could also be deduced from the various popcon statistics.

Two, Ubuntu, and by extension Mint, have better funding thanks to Shuttleworth/Canonical/ and by way of donations from a user base which we can reasonably assume is larger and the Ubuntu brand is better known than Debian.
Don't like it, tough, because Linux needs to be commercially viable to survive, just look at who the Linux FOundation gold members are, how they or their employees contribute to Linux and how much money they give to the project and make from it.

Three, a sub-argument of two really but important enough to warrant its own paragraph, Ubuntu and Mint actually come pre-installed on A LOT of systems from major vendors, Debian doesn't, and as Linus himself said it, one of the main problems with desktop Linux adoption is the fact that Linux just doesn't come pre-installed.

Four, coupling, a lot of the various Debian and Ubuntu "packages" were never developed by either group, but rather created by various third parties and just built so that they can run better with the rest of the respected distribution, now systemd's APIs and other garbage might be an issue here, but a lot of the applications and daemons are actually supposed to run on other UNIXEN, both commercial and not.
Also there is the possibility of forking off stuff and using things like the udev replacements from busybox or gentoo, and even porting stuff from FreeBSD.
Five, Ubuntu is moving towards systemd!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Shuttleworth

Nevertheless, the decision is for systemd, and given that Ubuntu is quite centrally a member of the Debian family, that’s a decision we support. I will ask members of the Ubuntu community to help to implement this decision efficiently, bringing systemd into both Debian and Ubuntu safely and expeditiously. It will no doubt take time to achieve the stability and coverage that we enjoy today and in 14.04 LTS with Upstart, but I will ask the Ubuntu tech board (many of whom do not work for Canonical) to review the position and map out appropriate transition plans. We’ll certainly complete work to make the new logind work without systemd as pid 1. I expect they will want to bring systemd into Ubuntu as an option for developers as soon as it is reliably available in Debian, and as our default as soon as it offers a credible quality of service to match the existing init.
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316

PS: Just deal with it or build your own, creating a zillion topics about this same issue will not change anything.

Last edited by jens; 02-14-2014 at 08:56 AM.
 
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:52 AM   #28
vl23
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Originally Posted by jens View Post
Five, Ubuntu is moving towards systemd!


http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316

PS: Just deal with it or build your own, creating a zillion topics about this same issue will not change anything.
Uh, no he didn't

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Shuttleworth

Nevertheless, the decision is for systemd, and given that Ubuntu is quite centrally a member of the Debian family, that’s a decision we support. I will ask members of the Ubuntu community to help to implement this decision efficiently, bringing systemd into both Debian and Ubuntu safely and expeditiously. It will no doubt take time to achieve the stability and coverage that we enjoy today and in 14.04 LTS with Upstart, but I will ask the Ubuntu tech board (many of whom do not work for Canonical) to review the position and map out appropriate transition plans. We’ll certainly complete work to make the new logind work without systemd as pid 1. I expect they will want to bring systemd into Ubuntu as an option for developers as soon as it is reliably available in Debian, and as our default as soon as it offers a credible quality of service to match the existing init.
he basically says that 1) The Ubuntu TC people will review it.
2)That they are still going ahead with their project to fork stuff out of it so that things like Gnome still work.
3)That they might make it default, after their TC is done with it, and only after it provides "credible quality of service to match the existing init."

He also basically says that Upstart>systemd above.

This is just more politics, I highly doubt it will actually happen though.
Don't forget that he is not on the Ubuntu TC, he can't realistically force them to use something else.
 
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Old 02-14-2014, 10:05 AM   #29
jens
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Uh, no he didn't



he basically says that 1) The Ubuntu TC people will review it.
2)That they are still going ahead with their project to fork stuff out of it so that things like Gnome still work.
3)That they might make it default, after their TC is done with it, and only after it provides "credible quality of service to match the existing init."

He also basically says that Upstart>systemd above.

This is just more politics, I highly doubt it will actually happen though.
Don't forget that he is not on the Ubuntu TC, he can't realistically force them to use something else.
Do you honestly believe what your writing?

Sure, it's all a big conspiracy and the upstream kernel people aren't involved at all.
 
Old 02-14-2014, 10:12 AM   #30
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