And Windows is a copy of (the old) macintosh... no... I think Thymox is very correct. An inclined Linux user probably will use neither KDE nor Gnome. But I was sooooooo happy to have KDE 1.x (I don't remember), because it took time to get familiar with the console too!
When I reach the numbers of posts that acid_kewpies has, i might think similarly

The number of posts has nothing to do withit anyways, you can chat all day long on general forum talking about who reads what, flushing windows down the toilet pipes, etc. X or no X that's the question. I am pretty familiar with console only systems, I can figure out KDE and GNOME, I familiarized myself with AfterStep and E, do I think I am a guru there? No, there are lots of things to learn because it doesn't get much brain how to add a new entry in K menu or AfterStep wharf and zharf modules. What really puzzles me how to make them behave the way I'd like them, for instance in E I want to figure out how to bring AfterStep start menu by pressing ctrl-alt-middle-click or such. That's on windowmanagers and desktop environments.

Yes, of course, but if you get over 1000 posts, that actually are not only talking about Linux, but helping or asking questions, you can say that you use Linux for a longer time and have some experience with it. That's what i wanted to say
Calum: thank you for that tip on XFce... it doesn't look to bad at all. I always sort of ignored it... I will consider it for my second computer (I just love antialiased fonts....)

Though you may flame KDE, the new version is way faster and more appealing. This means that Linux is now easier to sale to the corporate world. KDE 3 makes Linux look easy the end user but when it comes time to troubleshoot who are they going to call and what hourly rate are they going to pay you since not every Jo Blow knows how to fix it. I think it is a big step for Linux and support further develop of such pretentious desktops for that is what is going to make or break Linux, or atleast I think so.
But yes, they may be an overkill for an avid Linux user.

RodDog

firstly it seems like you are saying that linux should have pretentious desktops, because they will entice business users to the OS, and also you seem to be saying that if a desktop is hard to configure, this is a good thing because somebody will get paid for coming out to fix it?

while those things are both true, and i suspect that this is the direction that linux is heading in, i think that both those things should not be foremost on our minds.

re: more people using linux, who cares? linux is not a moneymeking enterprise in its essence, so it does not care how many users it has, like other OS/manufacturers do. I say that if somebody wants to use linux, fine. if somebody wants to use any of the other hundreds of operating systems out there, then fine too. I am more pro-freedom than pro-linux and i think everybody should get to pick what they themselves want. This means they can pick to use KDE if they want. or gnome, or windows, or whatever. This choice should not be sacrificed to make linux have more users. ie: it should not be a clone of anything else, and to an extent it should not pander to people's whims if it means a sacrifice of efficiency.

As to the second point, you are advocating planned obsolescence. Where something is shipped deliberately faulty/buggy and with an intention of being made obsolete within a short time, just to make more money on service calls, patches and the next version. I am sure you know by nowe that another company has managed to refine this into an artform, and coincidentally, their computer software is amongst the worst software commercially available at this time. Again, efficiency and sense should not be sacrificed purely for the sake of money.

I haven't actually tried KDE 3, i'm still on KDE 2.4 actually, it seems quite slow, but is more reliable, as i said than GNOME with my mouse.

I like the way i have about 6 different desktops to choose from in my default mandrake install though, i think i only got the two in a default install of red hat 7.0...

I agree with you in both of the areas that you mentioned. That is not my main view of Linux. I was just adding the fact to the mix.
The true spirit of Linux is not about money.
And as far as implementing a faulty and or buggy solution to a corporation, that is the last thing that I would want to do and that is why I am excited about Linux being one step closer to becoming a vital rival in the corporate market. I want to implement solid solutions. I hate people who purposely create problems so that they can up their billable hours. I do retainer fees when I can and if I can put Linux out there, I wouldn't have a machine crashing on me every day. I should have phrased myself differently. I wrote that at 4:00AM this morning. But, you owe it to yourself to try KDE 3 and see how much better it is. I think the average windows user in most corporations would have no problem switching over. I know Linux doesn't care how many people use it, but I do as long as they are my client. I would way rather deal with a logical OS. This is no way anti-freedom. If anything it is Pro Freedom. I hate the price that corporations have to pay for licensing. I would love to tell them that their licence is FREE!

Peace,
RodDog

points taken!

and i think i will try out kde 3, though i'm not in a hurry to do so, so much other stuff to get used to too!!!

This may be a silly question (forgive me, I'm new ), but how do I try out the other window managers? I saw the option once soemwhere, but I forgot where.

Just download the source or an rpm of one of the windowmanagers. Then, (In slackware), you would have to edit the .xinitrc (don't forget the dot) in your homedirectory. And when you start X, it should load your selected Windowmanager