Everything before this quoted section is typical "narrative" of a core group who don't understand what Debian has actually done.
.Debian has made systemd the default it has not made it the only choice. Debian users have the choice of 3 inits (systemd, sysvinit, upstart) and they do not have to use systemd just like they don't have to use Gnome (the default DE in Debian). The "narrative" you are spreading is fud and needs correcting "with strong, visible" corrections from people who can correct it.

Devuan may be well publicised but the narrative you are spreading is incorrect. You say Devuan has many users, please post a link today for a Devuan iso that I can download and install on my system. If you can't I can only assume there is no Devuan available for people to download, install, and use.

"I dearly hope" people would stop spreading fud and making up their own "narrative". If you want to use Slackware use it, please don't spread fud about Debian and don't make something (like Devuan) bigger than it really is in order to make your point look better than it really is. To much of your post has no basis in fact, you accuse others of using a "narrative" when you wrote pulp fiction.

4. You forgot OpenRC.

My impression is that while systemd is technically a choice, certain packages my require systemd as the init system. On my machine, I'm still on Sys-V. If I try to upgrade policykit, it requires systemd to be installed.

".Debian has made systemd the default it has not made it the only choice. Debian users have the choice of 3 inits (systemd, sysvinit, upstart) and they do not have to use systemd just like they don't have to use Gnome (the default DE in Debian). The "narrative" you are spreading is fud and needs correcting "with strong, visible" corrections from people who can correct it."

If you look into the Devuan page you will see the reason they decided to move forward was the decision of Debian to allow hard dependencies to systemd on other packages in their repos. As long as you don't mind using Debian and being barred from using many packages in their repos I guess you could still have choice, but considering the kind of second class citizen you would become you're claim of FUD seems dishonest.

"Devuan may be well publicised but the narrative you are spreading is incorrect. You say Devuan has many users, please post a link today for a Devuan iso that I can download and install on my system. If you can't I can only assume there is no Devuan available for people to download, install, and use."

Did you misread his post or is this more dishonesty? He clearly stated " I hope it succeeds, and is very successful, and has many users, and provides the basis for many derivative distributions.". He didn't claim that was currently the case only that for the good of Linux it would become the case.

You seem to want to claim criticism of systemd is "FUD" and yet try to spin the words and motives of others to your own agenda with very little concern for honest discourse.

No I didn't, while it is probably possible to use OpenRC in Debian the Debian Packages page does not lists it as an option. https://packages.debian.org/jessie/init

Are you suggesting that someone who uses Debian without systemd would become a 2nd class citizen? is this not extreme? is this not fud? it appears you are playing to people's emotions with this statement, is this not a dishonest tactic to use?

It is up to the desktop environments (i.e. upstream) what they make require as a dependencies. Yes distros like Debian, and to a much lesser extent (if it ever gets off the ground) Devuan, can work on the code to make systemd an optional (or recommended) package but that takes time, effort, and a huge volunteer work force. When a distro like Ubuntu, which has a paid workforce, follows Debian's lead to systemd as a default it says alot about how much work would be required to remove every single hard dependency for systemd.

I made a mistake, thanks for pointing it out, I apologise for it. I'd be interested to see how many militant anti-systemd people out there would be honest enough to say they maid a mistake when it was pointed out to them and apologise for it.

I have said in various threads I don't like systemd and that I believe it is to much. What you have done is stick to the posts where I challenge the militant anti-systemd crowd for misrepresenting reality, much like you appear to have done with your 2nd class citizen comment.

Like everyone I make mistakes, and am not to proud to admit it. Again I thank you for pointing out I made a mistake in my previous reply, if I make more please feel free to correct me and I will acknowledge my error.

@ttk, I apologise to you personally for my mistake regarding parts of your posts.

While the package init does not list OpenRC as a dependency, it is still as easy as apt-get install openrc. I've been using it on one of my test machines with no issue for a while.

A battle of semantics is easy to fix.

Considering many packages will have systemd as a dependency, for the near future (but after that?) users will still have options, but not viable options, unless they are willing to use Debian, while "being barred from using many packages in their repos." In which case "being second-class citizens" should be changed to "using Debian without full access to available packages."

Is a non-viable option really an option?
How much difference is there between not being able to use all the available packages like systemd users can and being a second-class citizen (in the context of how the term was used)? Yes, such choice of words is emotional, but systemd is an emotional topic.

That would depend on what meaning one associates with "citizen" in this context, wouldn't it?

Those associated with Debian often talk of the "Debian community" of developers, maintainers and users. While nobody would claim that the Debian community is somehow like a nation state, "Citizen" is not necessarily a bad analogy for a member of such a community.

That packages will now be allowed to have hard dependencies on systemd is a simple fact, and not in dispute. These dependencies are not limited to system management software, which one could reasonably expect to depend on another system component, but extends to common user applications and at least one desktop environment. This is also a simple fact that I believe is not being disputed by anyone.

So, if we accept the "citizen" analogy, is it "FUD", "extreme" or "dishonest" to describe the situation for non-systemd-using Debian users as one akin to that of second-class citizens? Do they miss out on opportunities available to systemd users? They most certainly do. Are they "discriminated against" in the sense that Debian packages won't be available to them as a result of this recent decision? Absolutely.

Perhaps the expression is intended to provoke an emotional response, but I don't think the analogy is either unreasonable or extreme, and there doesn't seem to be any "FUD" involved, as the facts are there for all to see.

(However, insinuating that someone is dishonest for presenting the facts in a somewhat emotional manner is perhaps a bit extreme. Just a bit.)

Packages have always been allowed to have hard dependencies on other packages.
The recent GR rejected the proposal to require devs to remove such dependencies.

For anyone running Debian who wishes to avoid systemd as an init system:
https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#systemd

Thanks for that I might give it a try on a Live Build system.

I doubt it, the problem with the entire systemd debate now is it has gone way past technical discussion but is on the far end of emotional debate.

I'm trying to figure out an easy way to see which packages on all of my Jessie and Sid installs are hard dependencies of systemd. I'm not that good at scripting so it will take a while but I will keep working at it and post a list when I have it done.

What some consider non-viable others consider viable. I don't believe anyone has the right to insist to others that what they like and use is non-viable. Just my opinion of course.

There is also an inherent problem with suggesting people are 2nd class citizens just because they don't have full access to available packages. There are things that are available for Windows users but are not available for Linux users, does that mean every Linux user is a 2nd class citizen?

Again one persons opinion of what is not viable is different to another persons opinion of what is not viable.

Even if you took the word at its loosest meaning it would suggest a member of a community. The thing is people have choice they can use systemd or they can use other inits. To claim that exercising choice within known available options, and bringing Randicus' "viabile options" scenario into it would indicate that suggesting someone was a 2nd class citizen because they chose something like XFCE or LXDE, or KDE, or Englightenment, or TDE (you can install TDE on Debian) is a tad extreme. There are many options and as Debian users they are there to provide you with a wide variety of choice.

I don't believe anyone said it was in dispute, Gnome is heavily supported by Red Hat as is systemd, it seems logical that pressure would be put on Gnome to heavily incorporate systemd but that does not mean you as a user must use Gnome and by no means does that make you a 2nd class citizen.

I don't accept this and if I did I would have to accept that if we used anything except for Windows we are 2nd class citizens purely because software corporations (e.g. Adobe) do not support Linux adequately. If you want to accept you are a 2nd class citizen then so be it, I won't.

No the facts are not there for all to see because only a certain groups of facts are presented and no other facts are even considered. Consider the fact that you as a Linux user do not have the option of using Flash in any non-Chrome based browser simply because you use Linux. The obvious choice if you must use Firefox is to use Windows so you can have current flash. Does this make Firefox or Linux lesser choices and you for choosing to use them a 2nd class citizen? I would say no but by the current analogy it appears as though a few of you think so.

I apologised for my extremism.

Invalid comparison. You are comparing apples with water melons. If comparing Debian with Windows, then there would need to be a case where different Windows users also have different levels of access to software. If you and I both buy copies of Windows, we would get the same selection of software.

Your comparison of Linux to Windows in regard to second-class citizens is also misleading. That is like saying Americans are second-class citizens, because they do not have access to the Canadian medical system. Second-class citizen refers to a group within a community, not to people in different communities.

Not surprising. systemturd represents a fundamental change in Linux operating systems. Of course emotional argument will accompany, possibly even overshadow, technical debate.

No I am comparing computer users access to what some people may deem to be viable software. Just because you don't see the link doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You need to understand Linux and Windows are computer Operating systems, we are discussing computers in a computer (namely a Linux) forum. We are not comparing medical systems. If you want to further obfuscate the issue then go ahead by discussing medical systems and not computer operating systems but you can do it without me.

Yep when people can't type systemd but they type systemturd they are showing great restraint and keeping it to a technical and not an emotional discussion :rolleyes:

Illustrating the difference between second-class citizens within a community and citizens of different communities by using an analogy with countries obfuscates the issue? I should change my user name. Understanding the difference between intra-communal and inter-communal makes me the Great Obfuscater. That is a catchy name.

Amazing .. nothing in my post mentioned Debian or insulted Debian, but k3lt01's reply made it seem like I was attacking Debian, and the entire thread has degenerated into a bar-room brawl about systemd in Debian. I need to remember that trick.

k3lt01, my hat off to you, sir. You know how to get things done.

No surprise there. Twisting words around and then claiming the person posted something with a different meaning is his usual modus operandi. I presume it is his way of making discussions less boring.