appreciate the advice whitehat, I'll take all of it except for the shrimp part, all I can say about shrimp is ughhh. I have to say I do agree with the consensus that experience is the cat's meow. However, that said, an academic basis is also a valuable asset to get you in. But nothing compares to knowing someone. ghight is right youu have to make your opportunities work when they present themselves. I think that sometimes though the opportunity can be hard to come by. I've held various jobs in my time (short though it may be) and I have only worked for one major corp. A grocery store chain, they also were the only ones that gave me my best bet at an IT foothold, however, due to the fact that the job required relocation I had not the resources to move, and couldn't take it. Since that time I have worked for all small companies. The Ambulance service I work for now is a small one as well but does have an IT guy, one of the owners sons :-), while I have from time to time with this company proved at least minimally helpful with computer problems they don't or can't offer me an opportunity to make a latteral move. My hope with the certs is that it can be my stepping stone into an IT job at an IT company or larger company with an IT division. A position at entry level is all that I could ask for and yet it has so far eluded me. On a different note, I have had approx 2 yrs combined IT work under my belt, but it is varied, and only one year of that is not educational related, that one year was freelance work. This experience though short still hasn't helped open any doors of opportunity to me. Honestly I think there are many out there like myself who are getting to a point of not knowing what to do. So what do you do?

--Alex

hey all

im 17 going to college in the uk atm, but i have to say its boring as hell lol and want to drop out

i been looking into doing one of these courses from home kinda things
e.g a Linux Red Hat Advanced course which will in the end give a RHCE
or maybe a networking course

what would be the advantages/disadvantages to this and what would be the best course(s) to look into? (e.g which have plenty of job spaces/earn fair amount of money)

Kane

Courses don't have job spaces or earning potential. Degrees and certifications are ways to get your foot in the door.

A lot of employers (at least in the UK) won't consider you unless you have a degree. Sometimes it has to be a degree in Computer Science but often just a degree will do. Certification, similarly, is evidence to an employer that you know a bit about whatever you're certified in and you have the ability to learn and use knowledge.

Whether these lead to jobs depends on how many jobs there are in the area you want to go into vs. how many candidates. If there are 500 people trying for 20 linux jobs, odds are employers will start off throwing out CVs of people who don't have degrees and/or relevant certifications; after all, who wants to wade through 500 CVs in detail - you've got to find some way to get down to a manageable number.

If there are 500 people and 500 jobs, you're pretty likely to get a job with just a bit of experience and/or enthusiasm.

If your primary focus is to get a well paid job, try looking on an internet job site and seeing how many jobs are on offer in your area. For example, jobserve brings up 59 matches for jobs involving Linux in North-West England, compared to 36 for AIX, 68 for Solaris and 448 for Windows. Lots of these won't be ones that I have the skills or interest to apply for, but they give me a general idea of what the job market's like for those skills. This should also get you some idea of the salaries going.

As has been said before, experience, experience, experience. Getting hands-on experience will be invaluable in getting you an interview, a job and keeping you in that job. It will also make getting a certification much easier (revision is less hassle if your whole day doubles up as a revision session). Once you have some skills, helping out at a school, college or somewhere else, even if you aren't being paid to do it, could be a good investment.

As much as I hate to say it, but a Linux Cert. alone isn't going to cut it. Even though knowledge of Linux has a definite place in the job market, companies aren't firing their WinNT guys and replacing them with Linux people. They are simply retraining their WinNT people. You will need a broad range of experience and knowledge to even get an interview. If you want a job with a decent company and have no experience, a VERY VERY large majority will need a degree.

One thing that I am learning everyday as a systems administator, well, is system administration. I can setup and manage Novell, Windows, Linux, and Solaris machines without a hitch, but it's making everything work together reliably to accomplish the goals of the company that make things a real struggle. I can't do the same things I do at home to a production server. My boss would be down my back so fast I wouldn't even get a chance to explain. It takes time to get it manageable, if that makes sense. Keeping in mind budgets, security, reliablity, equipment, people, and time can make a beginning administrator quit in a heartbeat. I certainly wouldn't want to go back and start over. Because of that, I would have a real difficult time hiring someone that couldn't prove to me that they they have the required skills. The short version is that it take more than just learning an OS to be a system admin. That is probably only 1/3 of the position. Start low and in 5 to 7 years, you would have the proven experience be an excellent administrator, but also keep in mind that being a system administrator is not a glam job in the least!

Having gotten about 2 years total experience in paid and unpaid computer work it stilll, unfortunantly seems not to help getting my foot in the door, but that is just my experience so far. On the plus side I got a side gig with my main employer, creating an employee record database from ground up, another notch in the old experience section of the resume, however, insignificant it may be.

--Alex

You know, 2 years isn't a lot of experience, but is an excellent start. If you can put together a steady stream of experiences like you have been doing it is certainly a plus. Just be sure before you start that the person with whom you are doing the work knows that you are wanting to put the work on a resume. Ask them if they are willing the be a reference for you, but also make sure that their reference will be positive. I'd say stick with what you've got going for you. It's a very good start, but don't expect any single job to get you in the door. You need a broad range of experience.

i have also did what whitehat did ...
i wish i would of came to the realization earlier, but i did attend university for 2 years, and decided the hell with this ... i am sitting here, taking the odd IT related course, but having to take things like psych and political science and subjects like that, and it has nothing to do with what i want to do ... quite frankly i thought it was a waste of money ...
i personally think if a person is "into computers" and thats what they want to do with their life, then i think university "is not" the way to go ...

i left university and started writing certifications ... and thats all i am going to do from now on ... just write more, and get certified with more and more things ...
i find that way it shows the employer what you know by having individual certs, rather then going in and seeing that all you have is a degree in CS and that you "have an idea" how to do certain things ...

so the moral of my story is, and yes its a personal preference, but i think if you want to have a career in the IT industry, then just go write certs, and more certs ...
i say the hell with university, as you can get waaaay more knowledge for less money by writing the certs ...

Getting your foot in the door is certainly important, but its been my experience that once inside what really counts are your social skills. Neither a degree nor certs prepare you for corporate politics. Knowing your "stuff" and working hard doesn’t seem to be nearly as important as fitting into the company's "culture." Some of the brightest people I've ever met have remained in the academic world for that very reason. They'd probably be billionaires if they had the social skills to match their IQs. Sometimes when I find myself swimming with sharks I'm truly envious of them however. I’d rather be a professional student than a professional brown noser. It’s a little too late for me now though. Maybe I'll hit the lotto someday and can then start a new career in astrophysics. Never hurts to have a dream I suppose. Anyway, the fact that some of the most successful people in the IT industry, like Bill Gates and Michael Dell, don't have a single degree or cert hanging on their wall should tell you something.

stealing ideas ring a bell ?

That's a social skill.

Two interesting points here, first off, fitting in to the company culture is SO true! But I think every job is that way.

Secondly, when you work for yourself, who cares what degrees or certs you have? If you have a problem, you can always take it up with the boss!

damn good site, hope iv'e helped out.
http://www.maththinking.com/boat/computerbooks.html

Since there seem to be some young impressionable people reading this "Post your bad advice here" thread, I'll be the "online-parent"!

STAY IN SCHOOL AND GET YOUR DEGREE!

Oh yeah, QUIT DOING THAT OR YOU'LL PUT YOUR EYE OUT!


Seriously though, the odds of getting a job in IT without a degree are getting slimmer and slimmer. Yeah, back in the day, it was better to have experience. But back in the day, nobody had degrees and companys had to hire based on experience (if you had a personal computer and read at least one magazine, you were network administrator material.)

We're not back in the day anymore, and you are not wasting your time. I know you want to believe you are just so you'll have an excuse to drop out (the easy road.) Remember that while there are a few successful "drop-outs" the odds are with the ones with degrees. Plus, you'll feel much better about yourself in the end if you stick with it.

not trying to beat a dead horse here... but noone seems to have mentioned an important point:

The fast track to getting hired, and making really decent money with only a fair amount of experience is without a doubt (IMO), certification. They wont get you the best job in the world, or get you the salary they claim to, but they WILL get your foot in the door, and will force you to learn a "full set" of skills necessary to administer a particular product. after you get a year or two of experience you can start making decision about which direction you want to go.

To the original poster - im not trying to be harsh or pick on you in any way, but IT is not the type of job that is going to just happen to you. If you dont have the tenacity and wherewithal to get that first job/first big break, then you dont have a chance in the industry. People who wish to get into the industry should be aware that characteristics such as:
-being a self starter
-being resourcefull enough to find your own solutions
-willingness to read several 1000 page books every few months
-having a wicked hunger to learn/uncover/discover new technologies etc on a daily basis
-etc etc

are a KEY ingredient to succedding in this field. I studied for 18 months on my own and put out over 150 job applications to get my first job. It was super fucking hard. If those sorts of challenges seem tedious, a waste of time, or simply "are not you", then I would save yourself the trouble and consider a different career path. You wont enjoy your job and your are not likely to suceed. Some jobs in programming seem to be pretty simple and routine, but anything networking related is going to be a bitch.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

other comments



It's pretty well known that most (not all, but most) people with a degree in computer science dont know shit about computers (after all... why would you spend so much time to only know a "little bit" about every area/subject of computing).

HOWEVER (KEY POINT): my observation is that if you ever want to get into any level of management, you dont have a chance without a degree. If you are happy with a tech/engineer/admin type job (and btw you can make plenty of money doing just that), shine the degree, go for certs, and most importantly gain true knowledge and experience of specialized skills (you will never get away with faking it in the IT industry).

If you see yourself heading twords management of any kind, you might not need to get your degree right away, but know that you will have to take care of it at some point in time. Management requires well rounded skills, and a broad knowledge of math/budgeting, people skills, time managemnt, etc etc.... stuff that you get used to and learn in college.

I dropped out of college (premed) because I regonized that I didnt have the time or patience to go the long road. Got my MCSE, A+, and Novell cert on my own (no schooling) and progressed rapidly with regard to salary and status. It worked well for me, but it really does take a particular type of person to go that route.


just my 2 cents.

bin/bash is of right of course, stay in school and get a degree. I just wouldn't recommend a CS degree. The fact of the matter is technology changes so fast it'll be of little practical value a few years after you graduate. Personally, I'm glad I didn't waste more time refining my COBOL and FORTRAN skills in college. Listen to your mom and become a doctor or lawyer instead. IT requires that you constantly update your skills or you'll be left way behind in very short order.