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Abe_the_Man 09-30-2003 12:31 AM

A thought on Linux and gaming
 
While i was at work today, formulating my plans for installing winex to run halflife, Medal of honour, Deus EX, and all those wonderful Windows games. I got to thinking. Why should the linux community, filled with so many brilliant people, spend all of our time figuring out how to get windows games work for us? Think of all the Linux users, who devote their time to programming sourceforge projects, new distros and even just helping users (like this site's moderators and members). If we were all to devote just a little of our time, Linux could have the biggest and the best gaming library out there. And i'm not referring to games like net-hack or zangband (which i may add are stellar games), i mean games to rival the big budget titles of valve, electronic arts, konami etc., for graphics and gameplay.

The whole point of my rant is this: If we can all come together to help make linux the best OS in the world, why can't we all come together and make it the best gaming platform as well!

I'd love to hear everyones, thoughts, suggestions or ideas!

salparadise 09-30-2003 01:41 AM

brilliant idea

horse before the cart stuff

yapp 09-30-2003 03:37 AM

Join a project ;) Contribute to the code :)

There is TuxRacer (got commercial however), OpenRacer (based on Tuxracer), Cube (very cool engine), and a lot more I guess.

salparadise 09-30-2003 03:48 AM

hmmm

i don't do code

have done a few hours visual basic,
under guidance

and that's the extent of my coding knowledge

nbjayme 09-30-2003 04:53 AM

hello,

Linux developers need to unite and come up with standard features underlying the OS.

The theme is "Linux the Power to Create." See discussion on JAVA Based OS in this thread. With that I believe Linux would become the powerful OS and not like Window$ full of convoluted libraries of functions that do the same stuff.

Linux need to have serious Apps (Office Suite) that truly rivals that of M$.

nbjayme

yapp 09-30-2003 07:03 AM

Sorry I'm not in such a rush
 
I don't believe Linus wrote his OS to compete with Microsoft. And it shouldn't imho... Both have their place in this world, and Linux always aims to do the best thing for it's users. (such as being compatible, and even be nice to support people using Windows related technology)

Besides, we already have an killer app: Apache...! At 1998, apache was the first web server software, allowing ISP's to host multiple sites. A cool feature none of the commercial webserver packages had! Linux and apache grew hand, and there are alive and kicking in the server market. (you really should see the movie/documentary "Revolution OS" ;)) With Linux and apache, ISP's suddently had the tools to host multiple sites at a large server complex, and free of charge! They even had the ability to improve the software if they didn't like it!


Linux need to have serious Apps (Office Suite) that truly rivals that of M$.

Why do you want to rival out Microsoft? Is it bad to have a choice?

There is a serious Office suite out there: OpenOffice. 200MB, and completely free. It's swx file format is simply genious. (unzip it, run 'sed', and you can alter the text for a website) I like Mozilla a lot more then Internet Explorer, even though it doesn't display 100% of the IE-based pages. I've been told that Microsoft won't release another IE (7) for 4 years... it's a long time... Imagine how much Mozilla would evolve in that period. Can we expect Mozilla-only websites in 4 years? :rolleyes:



I think it's very plain simple:
- If everyone uses closed, propriety software, no one cares about compatibility. (even MS-Office isn't compatible with itself)
- If there is a solid user base for other OS-es, people might start to care about open-standards, and software that works everywhere. Suddenly, OpenOffice, Mozilla, Apache, Jabber etc... become very interesting to use... because they work everywhere! :D
- thank god everyone is still using TCP/IP, and SMTP to send messages to each other, or PostScript to format their documents. ;)
- Also, I've been told that Linux is starting to reach the critical-mass.. In other words, if more then 5% of the users start using it, we could expect a snowball effect soon.


Linux developers need to unite and come up with standard features underlying the OS.

..standards for gaming? Have you noticed DRI, OpenGL, libSDL, X11? They are all good open source initiatives.. If Microsoft likes pops up with competing technology, such as Direct3D, and DirectX, don't blame us for not being compatible ;)


Linux doesn't 'need' anything. It just sits there for the people that like to use their computer differently.

Risc91 09-30-2003 09:14 AM

Quote:

While i was at work today, formulating my plans for installing winex to run halflife, Medal of honour, Deus EX, and all those wonderful Windows games. I got to thinking. Why should the linux community, filled with so many brilliant people, spend all of our time figuring out how to get windows games work for us? Think of all the Linux users, who devote their time to programming sourceforge projects, new distros and even just helping users (like this site's moderators and members). If we were all to devote just a little of our time, Linux could have the biggest and the best gaming library out there. And i'm not referring to games like net-hack or zangband (which i may add are stellar games), i mean games to rival the big budget titles of valve, electronic arts, konami etc., for graphics and gameplay.

The whole point of my rant is this: If we can all come together to help make linux the best OS in the world, why can't we all come together and make it the best gaming platform as well!

I'd love to hear everyones, thoughts, suggestions or ideas!

I'm not sure I understand where you want to go with this. Are you talking about creating new games for Linux (and linux only) or are you talking about porting existing games? Based on the last sentence of your first paragraph I assume you mean create entirely new games.

This would definitely be quite a project. I think it would be extremely hard to accomplish without any type of capital to work with.

Abe_the_Man 09-30-2003 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Risc91
I'm not sure I understand where you want to go with this. Are you talking about creating new games for Linux (and linux only) or are you talking about porting existing games? Based on the last sentence of your first paragraph I assume you mean create entirely new games.

This would definitely be quite a project. I think it would be extremely hard to accomplish without any type of capital to work with.

Well Risc91, the whole point of this thread is to find out what everyone thinks about the possibilities of native linux game development. I believe that with the whole community attitude behind Linux, their could be some amazing games developed, on par with the commercial offerings of the windows market.

I believe that this can be achieved with a minimum of financial resources, by using things like the tourque gaming engine More info at GarageGames.com , or other low cost avenues for development. Another idea would be the creation of an open source game engine that could be built upon by linux gamers similar to how half-life can be easily mod'd to create great games.

Now i'm not trying to start a development project or anything (i have literally no programming knowledge, just a year of basic turing in grade 11, and would thusly be unfit to start a project), i just want to start people thinking about the possibilities, and sharing their thoughts.

So everyone feel free post your thoughts, flames, rants and insults!

yapp 09-30-2003 01:15 PM

open source game engine? aren't there many open source projects you can look at? ...because open source allows you to look at the internal code? (tuxracer, cube, etc... here we go again)

But why are you so focused on game development? Are you sure this is the holy grail for Linux?

ps. watch the "Revolution OS" movie ;)

Abe_the_Man 09-30-2003 01:59 PM

Well I guess your right yapp, there are a lot of open source projects to look at. Tux racer and cube both look pretyy cool. It's just that all my windows friends mock my efforts to run windows games in Linux. And after trying for about a week to get my games to run in winex (i think i got it working now!) i just thought, that it might be more useful for the Linux community to spend their time developing their own high quality games instead of spending time trying to get windows games to work.

As for gaming being my holy grail for linux. I LOVE GAMES SO MUCH, but i hate windows SO MUCH. I just want great games!

Genesee 09-30-2003 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abe_the_Man
Well I guess your right yapp, there are a lot of open source projects to look at. Tux racer and cube both look pretyy cool. It's just that all my windows friends mock my efforts to run windows games in Linux. And after trying for about a week to get my games to run in winex (i think i got it working now!) i just thought, that it might be more useful for the Linux community to spend their time developing their own high quality games instead of spending time trying to get windows games to work.

Abe -

I'm not trying to be a smarta--, but I'd say "go ahead!" what I mean is that almost the entirety of Linux was/is created by people thinking just the same thing you are. "wouldn't it be great if...." turns into starting a project, getting some volunteers, programming, iterating, etc. all (literally) the source code is available and free for you to do whatever you want.

of course, high-level games require a huge amount of work and knowledge, but it's not impossible....

:cool:

Toker 09-30-2003 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abe_the_Man
....Now i'm not trying to start a development project or anything (i have literally no programming knowledge, just a year of basic turing in grade 11, and would thusly be unfit to start a project), .....
Not meaning to invoke the name of Satan himself, but you probably know as much, if not more programming than bill gates. Remember how ms got started... He bought DOS! (Oddly enough the only ms OS to actually work right. :D )

I see what you're saying Abe, probably one of the biggest main-stays of ms keeping it's status of majority OS, is the entertainment factor. For many households, it's really just a fancy console system that plays games with the web. I think a better option is getting the porting expanded.

If I have the option of a game on any OS I want, and the play is essentially the same on my system no matter what the OS, the deciding factor on what os to use will fall on where I get the best value/support/stability. Since I'm a fps nut (quake now while I'm drooling over Doom screenies) I made the choice for nix due to it's stability (and value :) ) Once you get games being released on every platform at the same time, I think nix (and Mac) will grow in the home user market....

teval 09-30-2003 06:33 PM

Hey,

I've heard so much about this, in so many places, just want to add what I think.
I don't have that much C/C++ expirience, but I am working on an open source game with others. I've I have quite a bit of lisp expirience, and have a few lisp games with SDL done, that I'll release eventually. I'm also writing some AI for civ-like games, and considering contributing to freeciv next summer. Lots of school work to contend with.

Learn programming, learn how to make nice looking graphics. Many games lack graphics, not programming talent. A lot of them fail because of the latter. Heck, if you don't have time to learn the API of a game, to contribute code, try making them a website. A lot of good games aren't getting popular because of lack of a good website.

Write documentation for a game, or make levels. Do any of the above an contribute, and stop telling others to do so. That's the point of releasing the code under the GPL. So that you too can look at it, learn from it, and improve it. There are lots of books out there, for free and not-so-free, about programming/game design/graphics.

Please stop telling people what they/us/we/others have to do, and just do it. Anything you do will be appreciated. Actually.. you even said it. If we all come togeather, so.. by all means. come :)

lyle_s 09-30-2003 09:36 PM

I hope this isn't too far off topic, but I don't know where else I'd mention this.

I saw on the news that someone (I believe it was an retired firefighter) doing fundraising and paying a few hundred thousand dollars to some company to make a fire safety video game for little kids.

It didn't look nearly as hard to make as Tux Racer.

There's an idea for someone that wants to start a project.

Lyle

Abe_the_Man 09-30-2003 11:43 PM

You know teval, you are absolutely right! I think that was the kick in the pants that i needed! I'm gonna go and learn to do 'something' that could benefit open source Linux gaming! You mentioned that you were working on some games. Can i get a link to your website?? Maybe you know some resources (i'm gonna google it and see what i can come up with). Thanks loads!

As for anyone else viewing this thread, please feel free to post your linux gaming projects, or ideas. Wanna form a project? I'd like to know about it, i'd like to contribute whatever negligible talent i have.

As you can all see, I love gaming! And i want linux to become the best gaming distro around!

Judland 10-01-2003 02:18 AM

Another way to support the Linux gaming community is to spend some money on the software Linux game developers create. There are some really great games already available (and soon to be released) for Linux.

Check out sites like:
www.tuxgames.com
www.linuxgamepublishing.com
www.garagegames.com
www.idsoftware.com

Just to name a few.

Also, contact your favorite game publishers (Lucasarts, etc) and tell them that you would spend money on their products if they ported to Linux. These companies will follow the money, so the more people that tell them so, the sooner they'll be contributing to the gamers using Linux.

yapp 10-01-2003 02:56 AM

@Aby_the_man:

cool :cool:

I love your reply.

Maybe I'll try to port my Carrier game some day too; it's based on a puzzle game I've played at some handheld console. Last month I was thinking about this. I've written it in Visual Basic, but it would be cool to re-write the thing in C++ and QT, and submit it to http://apps.kde.com :D. ... but I don't have that much time right now :( :p (guess what, I'd call the game Karrier :p)

If you need some programmer's advice; don't hesitate to ask. I think there are a lot of people around here with some experience, and tips for newbies. ;)



It's just that all my windows friends mock my efforts to run windows games in Linux.

I'd like to share some of you experiences at this point, hope it helps. :)

2 years ago, I would have said the same: why run into all these troubles? But a year later, I saw someone doing the most wonderful things with Linux. Working fluently in the console and in vim, opening ssh, typing a few shell commands to configure their www-root (located at their workstation, while they were at school), copying files to their workstation at home, X forwarding of kde 3 (or Solaris machines at school suck, and have kde 1.0 installed), checking their mail with pine or squirllmail (imap)

Last but not least, X-forwarding of OpenOffice.. And if you press the "open" dialog, you'll see your own remote home directory. (it was quite funny to see) And I wanted to press the print button, but he said "no, it will start the printer at home"... and I thought... wow can you use your printer with Linux too? And by the way, I was a little amazed about OpenOffice because it really looked cool. And he said, well it's 200MB and free. I couldn't believe it, because it seamed to have everything.

conclusion: ...people just can't imagine what you can do with Linux, nor imagine what X-forwarding, ssh + command line really mean. Most people (including me first) think you cannot do a damn thing with Linux. All I saw before, was a bunch frustrated users, working too hard to get their machine running. But these powers of Linux really shocked me.



That's why I don't try to impress my friends with gaming at Linux, but when they see "Unreal Tournament" at my desktop, they ask.. ...wow can you play games with Linux too? and I show them. ..and I just open konqueror, and they say "wow ... this doesn't look that user-unfriendly".

last but not least: I show them how the Unreal Tournament settings are stored in ~/.loki/ut; every user can have it's own settings, I show them the symlinks to my Windows partition (no duplicate files), and I explain that I (or a virus) can't hurt anything outside my home directory. :D Techies often find these points interesting, since it's soo simple to understand, and yet to effective.


Let Linux itself amaze your friends ;)


btw: Unreal Tournament has a native Linux port, UT2003 even has a Linux installer on disk 3 ;)

Kroppus 10-01-2003 03:59 AM

Uppsi Daisy
 
I think both ideas are great. Both Porting existing games and making some new games for Linux.
I use a mix of vmware and winex to play games on my box, and i still have to drop back into windows for some that won't play.

Showing of linux is a good idea, but it needs some more great games. Most people i know that looks at linux sees only the console based games and don't care or have the knowledge to bother to find other games. I even know people that's been running linux for years and argue that to have a deent solitaire cardgame they must have some sort of windows running on it.
Like PySol for instance?

Most people buys a pc to play games on it and even though UT2003 came with a well hidden linux installer. There's no hints on their webpage about it, no tips how to install it. If you don't care to search the forum for tips, you don't have much chance to install it straight from the box. Unless your lucky. :) I wasn't.

When it comes to coding, i'm sorry. I haven't done any coding since i worked on the Commodore 64 and then crossed over to the Amiga. And couldn't unsderstand why my code didn't work. :)

But anyone that needs graphics, ideas for games and or levels or webpages? I'm in. PM me or mail me.

I'm still working on a redo of my old webpages. Things takes time in Norway. :)
Specially with exams running now as they are.. :(

teval 10-01-2003 07:37 AM

Hey,

Currently I'm mostly working on http://borqueror.assimsoft.com/
Work on the project stopped early this year, and we've resumed a month or so ago. New version comming soon with SDL instead of Allergo.

If you want to learn programming there are a lot of good books out there. google for learning c++ and you'll find many. There are also a lot of websites about game programming and graphics programming.
Or.. you could learn GIMP and contribute art to a game.

Happy to see that you want to help projects out. Try to not start your own. I know how it feels to want to do so. Try to go around, find a game that hasn't been developed in a while, contact the developer, and see what happens. He/she might even help you out, but you won't be starting from scrach.
Check out lincity for something like this. That game needs a new interface, and to use a modern library like SDL. Sourceforge is a great place to find projects like this.

yapp 10-01-2003 08:41 AM

@Kroppus:

hehe need windows for patience? :D I think you've pointed out a good thing here..! Newbies don't know that KDE has more games installed, compared to Windows XP... Just like all the other things I'd described in my previous post.

@teval

cool. :) looks awsome.. :) Do you have some screen-shots too? Unfortunately, I couldn't find these at your web-page.

I'm sorry to confess... but at least, it's honest... I find your website a bit screen-consuming. The design is cool, but isn't it a little overwhelming?

I've been noticing that my website doesn't follow the rules of the http://www.catb.org/~esr/html-hell.html page either, but you might pick out some idea's. (I hope this doesn't sound rude or something. :() It did gave me a lot of inspirating making a nice web-page.

CoopLinux 10-01-2003 09:17 AM

I'm all for more games in Linux, as a passionate gamer the only reason I still have windows installed is because of games (and a few other windows only apps).

Kroppus 10-01-2003 09:56 AM

@yapp
I know, but that's not a newbie i was talking about either. That's after all the guy that managed to get me into Debian and *smiles* shall we say rekindle my passion for Linux? He's the one all my friends have been bugging with questions about "How to do this and that". :)
Strangely enough, he manages to run Red Alert 2 (pirated version) from Wine with no problem.

Yepps, Linux needs more games. And at the same time it needs to be told what games there is avaiable for it. Not everyone cares to search through K-packager, sourceforge or the rest of the net for a game.
Take me? I prefer actually to stop ouside a shop and see what's on the shelves and maybe buy a new game. Opps? I guess i still need my windows.
*laughs*

You know you're tiered when you have just finished burning a cd and can't get the dvd you just inserted to mount. *forgot that the dvd is out so that he can make a new back-up*

teval 10-01-2003 02:53 PM

Hey,

Heh, yeah. I know about the website. I didn't make it, but plan to make a new one after the new version of borqueror is out. It's a civ-type game in space. Like master of orion. But with 3d battle instead of 2d.
The game doesn't look too impressive right now, when the new version is out, we'll put up some screenshots.

Maybe they should add a Linux - Games forum?

Genesee 10-02-2003 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abe_the_Man
You know teval, you are absolutely right! I think that was the kick in the pants that i needed! I'm gonna go and learn to do 'something' that could benefit open source Linux gaming!
hey Abe -

Linux-gamers might be a good place to check out.

:cool:

trickykid 10-02-2003 07:23 PM

Moved: Seems suitable in our New Games forum. Regards.

yapp 10-03-2003 04:43 AM

Just game across those:

...libsdl.org game browser There are more then 200 sdl games here :)

...and try the plib gallery as well :)

arioch 10-03-2003 07:48 AM

Well Abe, my friend and I were talking about making a very eminence First Person Shooter/RPG/Puzzle/whatever else we can manage to code. It will take a lot of time, but if we have the community's help it should only take about a year or so. We are going to need everyone. Textures are going to be the biggest thing. We need *AMAZING* texture artists...so start drawing....bump mapping is a necessity.

yapp 10-03-2003 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by arioch
Well Abe, my friend and I were talking about making a very eminence First Person Shooter/RPG/Puzzle/whatever else we can manage to code.
Cool :) and there is another thing everyone could do: if you have problems starting your own project (though you'll learn a lot), you can choose to code for an existing project. Download their CVS, understand the code, and modify it a little. Send patches (diff -u) to the authors, letting them know you're a coder willing to help. They might ask you one day to join their project too.

arioch 10-03-2003 08:51 AM

Sounds like a plan :) I'm sure the community will back us in our quest for knowledge.

/edit
this is something that we cant just give up on...its an on going tedious process that rewards you with knowledge and something to kill time (or kill).
/edit

Abe_the_Man 10-03-2003 10:56 AM

Well Arioch, best of luck to you! I'd love to help out any way i can, but i'm no artist, so i wouldn't be much help with textures very much (though i'll see what i can learn). I don't have any relevant programming skills....... I can type! Need any story help, or maybe help with a manual, or something.... I don't know.... But you wan't the help of an enthusiastic gamer i'm here!

arioch 10-03-2003 11:03 AM

ANYTHING is helpful...if you have inovative ideas, im going to be learning programming so this project will be going on for a long time...It will be useful if you started to learn programming (i have a really good site for you...ill post the link when i get home). Voice overs are always good... So far its just my friend and i, that isnt enough to make a video game, let alone one that will rival major companies. So we will be needing everyones help. :D enjoy ill keep everyone posted on what and when things get started...

arioch 10-03-2003 11:56 AM

http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/index.html.gz

this is my bible for now...

Mega Man X 10-03-2003 12:33 PM

It's not so hard to actually create a game engine. It can go as hard as you want (using the terrible, confusing Nehe OpenGL tutorials) or the simple although efficient pygame engine, where you code with the nice python using SDL libs.
The problem is, game asks for to much media. Musics, Textures, Models. To make a game today is more an art then coding anything. You could even get some torque engines to avoid coding collisions or anything, but sooner or later you will get stuck at the media problem.
For some reason, it's difficult to find peoples who has actually good skills at working with media or willing to do it. In Linux community we do, have the wisest programmers around, but we (as far as I can see) lack a lot artists. Most of them are either working on Mac or in an illegal version of Photoshop / 3DS max on windows (sad, but true).
Just take a look at Quake 3 Engine. If you look at the CD (650 megas) between 400-450 megas are used for textures only. There is the trick that makes the game looks nice ;).
I had a team once working in a game for Windows. We used a very low level programming language called Blitz3D. It handles the collisions automatically. It was impressive the number of volunteers we got willing to help with the source code, but artists (musicians, modelers, photo-designers) where none.
Again, media is the most important thing today. Some companies with huge bucks not even bother making an engine. They practically employ only artists. An example is Lucas Arts, with the GREAT game Jedi Outcast2 and it's little brother Jedi Academy. Those games are nothing but a mod for Quake 3 Engine, with a nice media.
If you come up with a nice, flexible engine, most likely you will eventually find peoples to join the project. If you have no abilities with programming (or want to learn) try learning how to make 3D models, textures or even composing musics, that's what the market lacks the most ;) Believe me...

Abe_the_Man 10-03-2003 01:03 PM

Well arioch, thanks for the link. That guid is.....impressive to say the least! I got my reading for the next 10 years lol! Anyway, if you want to find game artists try posting an ad on Garage Games . Or maybe even a digital art site like GFX Artist (just make sure you stress the fact that no one gets paid!). Let me know when you're gonna get things started, what your ideas are etc. I'd love to be involved in making a game!

Mega Man X 10-03-2003 01:44 PM

Cool Abe_the_Man :) I might start again in December before Xmas, when I have a break from school. I promise I will post it here when I do it :)

Genesee 10-03-2003 03:00 PM

another link I just came across that may be of interest:

http://legacy.newdoom.com/index.shtml

:cool:

Mega Man X 10-03-2003 03:14 PM

Doom legacy looks pretty cool. I've played jDoom when I was on Windows and it rocked. Multiplayer very simple and fast as Quake's :).

arioch 10-03-2003 03:38 PM

yeah doom legacy is going to be on my things to do list this weekend. Wonder if multi-player is added? Maybe something I could work on to get me started.

bitterjack 10-04-2003 12:26 AM

I can remember back to when I was a kid. There were about a dozen games for Mac and about three dozen for windows. There were very few games for both. Nowadays, every box you pick up can go on either a Mac or windows machine.
If we let the makers know what we want (ie are willing to spend money on), they will make it.
We do not necessarily have to petition them. Just send them an email with a sample and say "Hey, this is some of what goes on in the Linux world. Don't you wish you could get a piece of this pie?" Enough people pony up and we will get the games we want.
Everybody keep up the good work.

Abe_the_Man 10-04-2003 12:45 AM

I did a quick search for some open source software and found these:

Skale.org (an open source music creation program)

Blender3d (an open source 3d modeling program)

I'm gonna get both of these and see what i can do (i actually took 1 year of 3d computer graphics in high school, biggest waist of time ever, we'll see if it can come in handy!)

Thetargos 10-04-2003 03:07 AM

Hey guys! you seem to be having a lot of fun while having this conversation :D

I'd like to help as well in any way I can. Currently I only can do few things: I know the general use (good use) of GIMP (I'm no expert... yet :)), I'm crawling my way into C++, I know a little (enough) C, but never got to know very well any APIs (In today's programming world, everyting is about APIs), I know some music (but I suck at composing :D), have a lot of imagination and I like GAMES (and everything computer-related).

A little bit about me:
I'm 25 (almost 26, next november 2nd).
I'm a physician by profession (which I love/live to be :)) which obviously doesn't let me much time to fool around with computers, but I get along :D. I'm a computer enthusiast and have a couple of (medical) computer projects on the desk (not for long, I hope). Have been using Linux for about 6-7 years now (since Red Hat version 5.0!), and I love everyting Linux wise. I don't hate Microsoft (Windows), but don't like it either... and I think that's enogh :o

So if there is any way in which I could help, just let me know! I'm a regular here at LQ (usually at the RH forum). So PM me or e-mail me, ok?

[edit]
And related to Linux Gaming... Well I know that some folks think that it may be the holly grial to make Linux a Mainstream OS... To me at least, it already is a Mainstrem OS (I only use Linux). But certainly the exclusive use of Linux came at a price. I decieded late last year to switch completely to Linux. I had been doing most of my work in it and only gaming kept me from doing the whole turn-over. I've seen and heard (I think) all the excuses there are about why should we never give up using Microsoft and why should we go over Linux. My opinion: Everyone has the right to speak his/her mind, but that is no justification for flamewars about which OS is best. I won't be getting in there (thoug it is tempting :D), suffice to say that the Linux gaming arena is taking its place. We have seen in the last couple of years good advancemets over this: The whole Quake series are supported natively, Return to Castle Wolfesntein is supported natively, the Unreal series are supported natively (ok, U2 sucks and has no port (thank god), but being able to play U1 trhough OldSkool in UT is great!), Neverwinter Nights has its native port (yes, it took almost a year, but came out prior the Mac version, that is say something!), and there are great plans for the immediate future: Doom3 (aww!), UT2K4 (yes!), and maybe others who will follow the lead from BioWare, Epic and Id. Add to this the independent projects, and you have a hell of great games for Linux.

I think we (the Linux Gaming Community, LGC) lack advertising, like may of you already said. We need to be heard and seen by those who make the games. I don't know if there is any gathering point for the whole LGC. Like a website which would contain game info (like tuxgames.com or linuxgames.com) but with a place like this. An open forum in which all can speak their minds (developers, gamers, artists, etc) and push forward the community. I know tuxgames.com has a mailing list, but I don't know, I think these kind of forums have a flavor of their own... and inspire more... confidence would be the word I'm looking for?

Anyway, the community is built up, but split. We need to get together and push all in the same direction, sometimes we diverge too much (to my taste, anyway)... Maybe we could show support for those Linux developers who make Linux games by byuing their creations, that way what was produced by the community, stays in the community!... But... Anyway, don't mind me (much) it's almost 4:00 in the morning, and I had a loooooong day :) so I may be very well speaking giberish :p

That is what I think, anyway (at a moment like this, tired and beaten by the past day).
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mossy 10-04-2003 04:42 PM

yeah Im thinking of going out and buying UT2003 for this reason [even tho I have aworking copy that plays great]. We really need to actually support the Companies that create games for linux.

Has anyone noticed that Nobody ever mentions Linux on their boxes - Doom, UT2003, Castle Wolfenstein, nvidia, ATI - none of them - I presume this is because they don't officially support it so they don't mention it. You would think that they'd mention it as a selling point ans explicitly say they don't support the linux version.

Thetargos 10-04-2003 05:11 PM

Have you heard of the so called Microsoft Tax? I think they are affraid of daddy M$

mossy 10-04-2003 07:05 PM

well they'll state they support Mac - but I see your point. I din't think Ms would like it - however I don't think they can legally descriminate.

Thetargos 10-04-2003 07:53 PM

Check the MS EULA, some say it is illegal. As I'm no US resident, I cannot say if this is whether true, but what I can say is that it does violate some fundamental rights, because it asks users to renounce other rights in order to use their products. So I think, yes... the companies may be affraid from comercial actions MS may take on them... but this is more a conspiracy theory than anything else... MS has pretty much all ends tied.

tchernobog 10-05-2003 10:17 AM

OK, me and some other friends started planning an "Adventure Games Engine". It is splitted in two main projects: a visual studio to create the rooms, manage the characters and the inventory and so on, and an engine that runs the resources prepared with the studio. The project is in incubator... it probably won't start before next June because of university... anyway, I feel that the really useful thing when programming Win/Linux Games, is the tools... Linux still needs tools like Visual C++ Studio... and I say this as a long running linux fan. KDevelop isn't yet ready to compete, and Eclipse is promising but not yet mature.

If you want to program Linux games, first help to program powerful solutions for development... just my 2 cents, anyway. Linux has already some really wonderful tools, as CVS and a wonderful compiler: GCC. We need to make better and intuitive user interfaces also for developers...

Mega Man X 10-05-2003 10:30 AM

Interfaces for games?. Tools like Visual Studio? Nah, short answer, you don't need it. Visual Studio is useful only for creating crap stuff with Microsoft Foundation Classes. Most likely you will end up with something not portable at all. It helps, indeed, to create games DirectX based. But then again, why would you create a DirectX based game if this thread is aimed to Linux games. A text editor and OpenGL would do the job. Or pretty easy to make games and portable, would be pygame:

http://www.pygame.org/

It uses SDL libraries and you code with Python language. It's all you need as a newcomer. Debian/apt-get based distros can download it with

apt-get install python-game

or

apt-get install pygame

Stay away from any MS product if you want to do Linux or portable games...

tchernobog 10-05-2003 11:08 AM

Obvious! I was just saying that a lot of times a programmer prepare an engine and ALSO the tools for artists to work with it. For example: a map editor, a quick way to implement scripts and so on... Take Starcraft/WC3 map editor for example.
Ok, before I hadn't been clear. We need a good integrated studio to quicken the development process, and also to create THESE TOOLS (as map editors, AI script editors, etc) for the artist. And then you need all those "crap".

Mega Man X 10-05-2003 11:22 AM

I still don't understand. Why do you need Visual Studio to create "tools" for the engine?.

Thetargos 10-05-2003 11:45 AM

I don't think he is reffering strictly to VS, but a similar linux driven suit environment, rather than just makin it all by hand. I agree in the aspect of project management (correct me if I'm wrong, tchernobog). Linux needs a good tool to have an easy way to manage large projects (again like that for M$, VS). KDevelop although good is not powerful enough (or if it is I haven't had enough time to explore it) or even Anjuta or Eclipse. As tchernobog said, they need to mature a little bit (just yet) to be the VS for the linux Development Environment.

What I mean is that a large project, needs to have some way to manage all the work being done. We all know all you need to code is just a text editor and the compiler, but managing the files, coordinating, etc. Now that is what I think could be done better.

BTW, read Linux Programming Unleased by Kurt Wall, there is explained the old school linux programming ;)

My $0.02


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