LinuxQuestions.org
Latest LQ Deal: Complete CCNA, CCNP & Red Hat Certification Training Bundle
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Distributions
User Name
Password
Linux - Distributions This forum is for Distribution specific questions.
Red Hat, Slackware, Debian, Novell, LFS, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Fedora - the list goes on and on... Note: An (*) indicates there is no official participation from that distribution here at LQ.

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 08-12-2017, 02:49 AM   #16
ondoho
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 8,745
Blog Entries: 5

Rep: Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141Reputation: 2141

yada yada...
i was criticizing this part of your statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by halldor2 View Post
for him they don't represent the direction he wanted the Linux operating system to follow.
...which implies that torvalds has clear opinions about or a wish to influence the development of linux distributions (though technically the kernel IS an operating system, we are talking about something else here - a usable system built on the linux kernel - i.e. a distro of some sort) --- which he has stated many times that he hasn't.
 
Old 08-12-2017, 03:02 AM   #17
halldor2
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2017
Location: Kent, U.K.
Posts: 6

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by halldor2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
yada yada...
i was criticizing this part of your statement:

...which implies that torvalds has clear opinions about or a wish to influence the development of linux distributions (though technically the kernel IS an operating system, we are talking about something else here - a usable system built on the linux kernel - i.e. a distro of some sort) --- which he has stated many times that he hasn't.
That's reading too much into my statement. Actually, I think it's probably a mistake to try to pin Linus down to one side or the other in the debate. Elsewhere in the interview, though in a slightly different context, he says:

Quote:
So that part isn’t a one-against-the-other thing either, it’s again more of a ‘I’ll have both of them, please’ thing. ‘
So "having both of them" is the best way to characterise Linus's attitude - he's saying that while there is room for "overly technical" distros, there is also room for Ubuntu and Fedora, and as the original creator of Linux his personal preference is for the latter.
 
Old 01-03-2018, 11:08 PM   #18
_roman_
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2017
Location: _Austro_Bavaria_
Distribution: gentoo / linux mint
Posts: 433

Rep: Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by halldor2 View Post
Having spent rather a long time trying to install Gentoo, without success, I'm wondering why this distribution exists, when so many others can be installed without the labyrinthine progressions outlined in the Gentoo Handbook.

I accept that by trying to make the installation work, a user could learn quite a lot about Linux - but isn't this learning procedure better covered, in a more systematic, less digressive way, by a project like Linux From Scratch?

What are the particular advantages and merits of Gentoo?
Are you aware of that the gentoo handbook misses many aspects?

The gentoo handbook is bare minimum.

The old stage installing procedure is not even covered anymore.

Custom init scripts and others are not covered.

--

Gentoo gives you choice.

Gentoo gives you a working toolchain

Gentoo does not overwrite except gentoo developer developed dhcpcd config files. I talk about resolv.conf which according to old linux books should not be touched. I had a big argument with around 20 gentoo guys in the past about it. SAme applies for the bootloader, e.g. linux mint ruins more than it has benefits for certain aspects.

Gentoo does not force me down useless packages. Slackware for example tells you, you have to take letter x, which gives you this and that bloat.
I do not get the point why every stupid desktop environment has to ship an extra screensaver. xscreensaver is the best. I had to rip out gnome-screensaver in gnome2, same was for kde and others.
Same for login manager. kdm vs gdm vs lxdm vs slim. Why do I have to install and have several of those when they are just not needed? You just need one of those that's it

Bloat on the disk means, you downloaded bloat, you compiled bloat, you backuped bloat, you wasted energy on bloat, you see bloat in your spyware95 style start menu, you have more security holes because you have more software installed, you have more conflicts because some software can not coexist with others.

Gentoos kernel is a bit faster than the ordinary genkernel gentoo kernel. That depends if you find the tweaks, which are well hidden. I talk about 5 minutes less for a 110 minutes libreoffice compile. only change was the kernel, and i did several reruns to verify that.

I only use a few software components from every desktop environment.

so basically with a binary distro i had to emerge

i3wm, gnome 2, gnome 3, kde, lxdm

kde is only worth for k3b.

--

I use the gentoo handbook only for the UEFI part, and how UEFI needs it.

--

I wrote yesterday down my backup procedure. That included a from scratch initalizing of a virgin SSD. 3.5 a4 pages with explanations.

--

gentoo handbook does not cover

chrooting from an existing linux? (i doubt it does) (i did that several times)
luks + lvm2 (which I use)

--

Not sure on linux from scratch. But that looked more hardcore than gentoo in my point of view last time i looked into it.

My gentoo installation is quite old. It survived many harddrives and several notebooks. It moves from harddrive to harddrive, from notebook to notebook. I had a turion mt-32 cpu from amd with my first gentoo installation. It took me 2 weeks to get it running but it was totally worth it.

--

I saw recently linux mint 18.3 supports encryption. This is a basic feature which most operating systems are lacking. I have it for several years already

--

gentoo is more a I use what I want distro. the reason why we have several different init systems, including systemd, openrc, static and other approaches. very old setups are still supported. Most others went the redhat crap route of SYSTEMD.
Gentoo also enforces you to setup those config files, and not someone else who just say use this that way. I have disabled or removed several "services". Where the term services is up to discussion at the end of the day. You could also say functionality.

--

binary distros sucks in regards of disk space wasted, configuration, backups, package managers, overwriting of config files and bootloaders. they are a choice but not a valid choice in my case. some guys buy apple products or microsoft tablets. I don't. When you have to deal with a package manager, or when you read the upgrade path of linux mint is reinstall you know why I use gentoo.
A reinstall implies you have to reconfigure everything again. Reinstall everything, setup everything fresh again.

--

When I do not have firewire hardware, why should i have the functionality in my software? I had once a fireware port but never something for it. It is some exotic apple hardware protocol which was hardly used in my area. A binary distro will of course ship with firewire hardcoded in it, regardless if it makes sense or not.
When I do not want to use ogg and flac files why should I compile support for those?

--

Sadly the gentoo freebsd project is dead.
I'm now interested in it, but it is far too late

Last edited by _roman_; 01-03-2018 at 11:16 PM.
 
Old 01-03-2018, 11:32 PM   #19
_roman_
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2017
Location: _Austro_Bavaria_
Distribution: gentoo / linux mint
Posts: 433

Rep: Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
Well, I think the point he was making is if you're someone who turns computer on, uses, turns off (like most people in the world), then Gentoo is a massive hassle to keep updated because you're finished what you needed to do, and portage is 15% done. This is the reason I don't use it. I quite like the design, it simply takes too much time to update because of everything compiling and I don't want to set and wait for it to finish when I'm done and want to leave.
Except the recent kernel issue, which Is my fault for not running an older kernel, gentoo is far less time consuming when it is setup properly.

My gentoo installation dates back to a turion mt-32 notebook.

Quote:
keep updated because you're finished what you needed to do, and portage is 15% done.
Not sure what you are talking about

asus k70 notebook sold, penryn cpu and intel gpu. the updates were always faster done as my work
asus g70sg notebook sold, penryn cpu + 9800m gts nvidia gpu => same

asus g75vw notebook, 3610qm i7, outdated ivybridge notebook cpu. i only run the updater now when i remember it, that cpu is such fast that it does not really matter, usually everything done in less than an hour. libreoffice takes ~100 minutes. well there is a binary package for libreoffice if you want to. or

--exclude libreoffice

and the shared libaries are kept which did break software in the past. so there is no need to upgrade libreoffice at all when you do not care. i did that for several months for a while.

Quote:
I quite like the design, it simply takes too much time to update because of everything compiling and I don't want to set and wait for it to finish when I'm done and want to leave.
we can assume you have something better as myself with my antique ivybride notebook cpu which is only at rank 200 in userbenchmark cpu list afaik.

your statement was true at the time for a turion mt-32, single core 64bit amd cpu, these days are long gone. and not even to these days a full recompile took one proper night and a bit more. max 2 days at that point of time

I also expect that guys setup their boxes properly

Proper kernel
a proper use of TMPFS and SSDs. When you go the newbie gentoo handbook route, no comment on that.

--

I used to type the first on my computer. Login, shell => emerge --sync; emerge --update --deep -N --keep-going world => forget about it.

I saw today what a hassle linux mint 18.3 package manager is. Wait, stupid popups. My relative stopped playing cards because that person thought it was important pop up. no it was stupid package manager status message pop up. I talk about a fresh, virgin linux mint 18.3 installation. Just adding a few games took forever on 8Mbit internet and MSI CR-700 notebook. And 3-4 times annoying pop up from the package manager.

edit: msi cr700 is compareable to my asus k70 which I used for 4 years with gentoo. the k70 had only intel graphics. so the cr700 is far more powerful in any aspects but takes longer for simple tasks in regards of the package manager. comparisson linux mint vs gentoo.

Next time I will use something else like SUSE, fedora, whatever.

When you use gentoo properly, you type emerge ... and forget about it. Much less hassle as the stupid linux mint 18.3 package manager. Less attention grabber.

I think you should use it for a while so you can have an opinion on it again.

I think the only platform where your statement is true these days is a rasperry pi. Yes gentoo even runs on rasperry pi.

the linux mint 18.3 installer is also wrongly labeled. It is a livedvd wiht a few packages with an installer feature. Takes endlessly to load, also time wasted on a very slow optical drive. optical drives are always slow, but they are slower when you load a full blown graphical desktop which no one really needs when installing a binary distro. Also to mention, the installer stops several times like windows 10 to ask you stupid things like keyboard layout and other stuff, instead of keep on going. well windows 10 iso from microsoft does the same, so the linux mint just never thought about something useful, just did a copy cat approach.

--

also i will not accept your time intensive argument.

you should usually configure those config files properly

of course you can use etc-update and use the defaults.
But the initial setup should be done properly regardless which distro or operating system in question.

e.g remote login, wifi, encryption, started services,

Last edited by _roman_; 01-03-2018 at 11:42 PM.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 08:09 AM   #20
Timothy Miller
Moderator
 
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Arizona, USA
Distribution: Debian, Fedora, Arch, & KDE Neon
Posts: 2,760

Rep: Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by _roman_ View Post

your statement was true at the time for a turion mt-32, single core 64bit amd cpu, these days are long gone. and not even to these days a full recompile took one proper night and a bit more. max 2 days at that point of time
For me, an acceptable time for updates is...20 minutes MAX.

Longer than that = too long, no go. I'm done checking my email and am turning my machine off to go do whatever it is I needed to do. If updates aren't finished, then they don't finish. And then they don't finish again. And again. And again. Most of my usage is while setting in a restaurant eating lunch. Or turning it on at work to see if the changes I made to the AP's worked. Or to test if we can access a site properly from outside the corporate network. Etc. and so forth. AKA, mostly thing that's it literally running 5-10 minutes and then back in my bag. I rarely just set and use a system for long (except my desktop that I work from home at 1 day a week).

I have ran Gentoo several times (the last was about 3 years ago). After 4 months, the system is 95% missing updates because it NEVER finishes. If someone has their pc on long enough to actually finish updates regularly, then it works fine. I don't. I start it up, check what I need to check, turn it off. For the way I use a computer, Gentoo simply doesn't work. If I were to try it again, it would be on a low end celeron N3450 w/ 4 GB ram (that's my test machine for trying out distro's right now). And I'm pretty sure it would still have the same issues. It's not a knock against Gentoo, like I said, I like the system. I just can't use it because being source based takes too long for my usage style for updates.

Although, I think I might actually try Gentoo again, if for no other reason, because it HAS been 3 years since I last used it...

Last edited by Timothy Miller; 01-04-2018 at 08:28 PM.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 09:19 AM   #21
hazel
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Harrow, UK
Distribution: Debian, Crux, LFS, AntiX, NuTyX
Posts: 1,952
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847
Your usage style sounds fairly standard for a laptop, so perhaps the moral is "Don't use Gentoo on laptops!"

Desktop machines which sit in a corner of a room, permanently tethered to the mains and the router, tend to get switched on in the morning and left running. I usually shut mine down in the evening, but not if it's actively processing something. When my old Fujitsu-Siemens (which has a Celeron Coppermine chip and about 500 MB RAM) was running 32-bit Crux, I often had to leave it running overnight for things like gcc updates.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 11:25 AM   #22
DavidMcCann
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jul 2006
Location: London
Distribution: CentOS, Xubuntu
Posts: 4,998

Rep: Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651Reputation: 1651
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Desktop machines which sit in a corner of a room, permanently tethered to the mains and the router, tend to get switched on in the morning and left running.
Not in this apartment, they don't! That's a gross waste of power and, frankly, environmentally irresponsible. The only things permanently powered round here are the boiler and the refrigerator.
 
Old 01-05-2018, 08:22 AM   #23
Timothy Miller
Moderator
 
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Arizona, USA
Distribution: Debian, Fedora, Arch, & KDE Neon
Posts: 2,760

Rep: Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788Reputation: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
For me, an acceptable time for updates is...20 minutes MAX.

Longer than that = too long, no go. I'm done checking my email and am turning my machine off to go do whatever it is I needed to do. If updates aren't finished, then they don't finish. And then they don't finish again. And again. And again. Most of my usage is while setting in a restaurant eating lunch. Or turning it on at work to see if the changes I made to the AP's worked. Or to test if we can access a site properly from outside the corporate network. Etc. and so forth. AKA, mostly thing that's it literally running 5-10 minutes and then back in my bag. I rarely just set and use a system for long (except my desktop that I work from home at 1 day a week).

I have ran Gentoo several times (the last was about 3 years ago). After 4 months, the system is 95% missing updates because it NEVER finishes. If someone has their pc on long enough to actually finish updates regularly, then it works fine. I don't. I start it up, check what I need to check, turn it off. For the way I use a computer, Gentoo simply doesn't work. If I were to try it again, it would be on a low end celeron N3450 w/ 4 GB ram (that's my test machine for trying out distro's right now). And I'm pretty sure it would still have the same issues. It's not a knock against Gentoo, like I said, I like the system. I just can't use it because being source based takes too long for my usage style for updates.

Although, I think I might actually try Gentoo again, if for no other reason, because it HAS been 3 years since I last used it...
Update: Looks like I can't try Gentoo. The hybrid ISO hangs after Loading initial ramdisk...

Left it setting for 10 minutes and never moved, ctl-alt-del doesn't do anything, ctl-alt-Fx doesn't do anything, etc.

Can't use the minimal image (no uefi support), so with the hybrid iso not working, I won't be able to install Gentoo after all.
 
Old 03-20-2018, 10:12 PM   #24
JWJones
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2009
Location: Cascadia
Distribution: UNIX-like stuff
Posts: 1,021

Rep: Reputation: 323Reputation: 323Reputation: 323Reputation: 323
I failed at installing Gentoo twice, and Funtoo once. Now I have both a laptop (with fvwm) and a desktop (with xfce) running Gentoo. Previously, I've been primarily a Slackware user.

I really appreciate the fine-grained control I have over my systems now. USE flags are just flat-out awesome.
 
Old 03-21-2018, 04:25 AM   #25
hazel
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Harrow, UK
Distribution: Debian, Crux, LFS, AntiX, NuTyX
Posts: 1,952
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847Reputation: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
That's a gross waste of power and, frankly, environmentally irresponsible.
Actually it isn't. All my daytime power comes from the solar panels on the roof. The mains meter only starts working again in the evening. The solar power that I don't use goes to the grid, which pays me a derisory amount for it, so I would rather use it myself.
 
Old 03-22-2018, 11:07 AM   #26
YesItsMe
Member
 
Registered: Oct 2014
Distribution: Gentoo
Posts: 357

Rep: Reputation: 110Reputation: 110
My first Gentoo installation was the one which is currently running. It takes ages when compared to e.g. OpenBSD which can be installed in (nearly) ten minutes including a desktop, but once it is set up, there will be no surprises for you because you are forced to think twice about what you are going to do in each step.

You are guaranteed to be really tired of Gentoo when the basic installation has completed, but you will be rewarded with a system that does what you want it to, limited only by the kernel which is the only component which cannot be replaced that easily. I'm rather happy with it - for now.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to generate complex gaussian distribution? (real gaussian distribution is given) carolasu Programming 2 03-15-2014 05:10 PM
New Distribution Forum - Gentoo jeremy Linux - News 30 07-25-2009 05:31 AM
Not as restrictive as Fedora;Not as complex as Gentoo piggysmile Linux - General 11 06-10-2005 12:17 AM
How long and complex is the quick way to install gentoo? mikeymorgan Linux - Distributions 3 05-24-2005 11:23 PM
Gentoo+Linux Distribution linuxzealot LQ Suggestions & Feedback 4 03-02-2005 08:27 PM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Distributions

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:14 AM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration