Have been trying to install Debian (Woody) 3.0 for weeks now. Cannot get xwindows going. Tried using both Knoppix and Lindows (old, first version) and they installed fine, I then use apt-get to upgrade it. That worked fine on Lindows - never did no Knoppix. All three ways did not produce sound. If Debian is so good why is it so hard to install???? (Please no flames - this is a serious question). MDK and SuSE pick up everything without problems and yet I hear how Debian is sooo much better. So why doesn't a "better" system install "better?"

Because "better" means different things for different people. MDK, SuSE or RedHat are "better" for people who like a smooth installation that detects all the hardware they have, nice graphical tools to configure it and who don't like to use console (or like it, but prefer GUI).
Debian (and Slack) are distros for users that like to have full control over their system, who don't need to have everything configured by the installer, because they know how to do it manually.
Of course, it's possible to make MDK fully configurable and uninsall all the MDK tools, but it requires more work that to install Slack or Debian. And it's possible to make Debian detect everything.
Just my personal opinion.

Thanks! That makes sense. Instead of my seeing this as a negative, then, I should have been looking at the wide variety of distros that are available for different tastes! Great idea!

That's why Linux is great, so many distros to try.

I'm a Debian too. I currently use Slackware however.

I think Debian has several draws:

1) It is the biggest distribution that is totally non commercial. Because of this, it will survive the worst economic conditions. As long as there is interest in Linux, there will be Debian. This should strike a nerve with current Mandrake users that are worried about the future of their distro.

2) Debian provides a huge selection of Open Source software (as long as you aren't afraid to install from the "unstable" branch

3) Debian's package handler works very well once you learn it. In the long run, this counts for a lot more than a "simple installer".

4) The "stable" branch is really stable. It also tends to be obsolete most of the time, but if you're just building a simple server, this is what you want. If you instead want to play around with the latest and greatest stuff, whether it works well or not, the "unstable" branch is for you. It is what most software developers seem to run.

My complaint is that nothing seems to be very well pre-configured at all. I spend a lot of time getting things to work in Debian.

I've just switched to debian, and I really like it. I've been using Linux for about 8 years, and I've been a little lazy about it up until now; that is, I very rarely change anything with my login configurations or start up shell scripts. The only things I've configured myself are apache, samba and maybe one or two other things. I've used Slackware, SuSE, Caldera, Mandrake and Red Hat.

Eventually, I just started feeling lost - like I didn't know quite what did what. Having very little setup for me is what I like about Debian. I'm not wondering what 10% of the processes on my process list are. (grrr kapm-idled..).

I also really like Debian packages. I've had a very frustrating time with RPMs. I also like the documentation better for some reason, even just minor comments in confs and scripts.

Prior to Debian I have successfully installed Red Hat (3 versions), Mandrake (3 versions), Turbolinux (1 version), Knoppix (to HD 1x), and a couple others I forgot the name of right now.

I have been DL'ing & trying to install all 3 versions of Debian with almost no success whatsoever. And, I am using -good- CD's...always checking the MD5SUM's.

I did get one copy of Woody to install with a lot of trouble, then found that I was unable to get a couple of programs to install with apt-get.

Even some of the Debian users I have exchanged info with on the net seem confused about it. One swore I didn't have an official copy although I did, and even the MDSUM's verified this. The same person was unable to grasp the fact that when I said "reference to" along with "not on the CD" continued to have the impression that I thought a certain program was -ON- the CD.

Then when I asked another about the "NON-US" CD, I was informed that the "NON-US" CD was for use -WITHIN- the US...not -OUTSIDE- the US...confusing to say the least.

Although I can get virtually every other distro's CD to boot...not so with Debian. I have to use a file on the CD...RAWRITE it to a floppy...boot off the floppy...and it in turn will allow me to boot the CD.

Duh!

The file isn't even documented anywhere I could find...I had to browse the CD and find it myself...and figure out what it was for.

Then they have this weird kind of floppy install...and their strange "jigdo" download scheme.

I have come to the conclusion that Debian does things like this on purpose in order to make you feel "special" if you are lucky enough to get it installed. And, that in doing so you learn these special "doublespeak" things so that you know what these things mean...but not the "un-initiated".

No wonder so many of the people using Debian sound like they are promoting some sort of religion...

Frankly...Debian isn't for me.

I downloaded all 7 CDs using Jigdo. I booted off the first CD. After rebooting the first time and then deciding what to install, the CD had trouble reading. I then specified remote sources and had no problems.

Jigdo worked great, as far as I could tell. I don't know if it was my CD ROM Drive or CD - I was using a pretty old CD ROM drive and pretty low quality CDRs.

I've had no problems what so ever using apt-get, dpkg or dselect. You just 'apt-get install package-name'. Seemed simple to me. I think though, that I might have felt special while doing it, but then again, it may be due to that I have my prompt set to "Have a nice day%:".

I like the idea of Jigdo. I get fast, reliable downloads with it. You'll appreciate it when you attempt to download Slackware, SuSe, etc. CD's from a single overloaded source.

I still think Debian has a steep learning curve. Much worse than Slackware. I am currently learning about the "update-alternatives" system -- interesting. I am also trying to debug a problem with my "Xsession" manager insisting on run Gnome regardless of what I have my "X-window-manager" defaults set to. I still think that once I learn all this stuff, I'll probably like it.

Slackware is a lot simpler an easier than all this however. It is especially easy to fix things that go wrong.

Redhat, Mandrake, SuSe, etc. is easier still until one of their automated systems and/or fancy GUIs fails to do the right thing, then things get very, very hard.

It's pretty funny, people always says that Debian is much harder than slack. I have used debian for almost a year, came straight from mandrake that i had used for 2 month, with no knowledge of linux.
I only had some minor troubles with learning Debian.
I have tried 2 times to install Slackware, and I feel like a total newbie when sitting in front of that.

I agree that Debian have some funny ways to do things, but i think that it has a well balanced set of tools, which doesn't "screw" up your conf files, like e.g. mandy and RedHat, where you are lost most of the times, because of their hard scripting of conf files.

About the cd's, I have never had trouble with the Debian cd's, maybe you have been unlucky with them. Mot of the time, i only download a netinstall floppy, and take it from there, instead of downloading a big iso file (or 7 of them, if you have the time....)

About the install, I know they are working hard to improve the install method, for the next major release, which should have better auto detection, graphic install etc.

When they have a decent install method I'll give it another try.

I have tried every install possible, including the net install.

the net install simply will not connect...and I have never had any trouble connecting with anything else.

One thing I think is really "special" is this:

They ask you to choose download sources...then scroll half the source choices off the screen where you can't see them.

And, at one point they ask you to choose between about 30 things, then at least 5 of them scroll right off the screen...including any text that you might want to read.

You're Debian success is commendable. My first Debian install went great, it was configuring the system afterwords that I'm [still] having trouble with. Just curious, what parts of Slackware do you have trouble with? When I was leaning it, I kind of remember a couple of places where it wasn't real clear how to get from one step to the next. It seems that both Debian and Slackware have reasonably fair documentation, but it is often hard to find.

I guess you can still use the Progeny installer (where ever it is now days) It is what the Debian people seem to recommend for people looking for a user-friendly installer. I've never tried it.

Of course there are all the commercial Debian based distro's as well (Xandros, Lindows, Libranet, Knoppix, etc) that install nicely, but with much less versatility.

Yes, this is a good example of why I think the Debian installer is rough. You probably could use Shift-PageUp to scroll back, but you would have to know that in advance.

Maybe Xandros is for you? It's commercial, so you have to buy it, but you get a lot of value-added non free software with it like "Crossover Office". It's been getting some good reviews. Since it *is* Debian, you can just "apt-get" any additions or upgrades from there for free. Not a bad combination.

Slackware was the first Linux I ever installed. That was in 1994 or 1995. It was actually easier to install slackware than Windows 95 - Windows 95 had a really hard time with my ethernet card for some reason. About 6 months or a year later I tried Debian, at the time I never got it to install, but it's about 7 years later now, so I'm sure things got a lot easier, if only because there's more info on the net about it.

I don't run X anymore, so when I say I like Debian, I'm not including how it sets up X. The sources list is large, but after they display the sources, you should have been prompted with the ability to specify a filter - you just type in any old thing 'usa' or 'new york' and see sources that match.

I like the concept of jigdo - that you can download newer parts of a CD image and then recreate the image later on. I really like the net install... maybe it depends on the source you pick.

I've been using Mandrake for the last year or so, and just had had it with Mandrake Update. The last time I used it, it would show 2 of every package that I could Upgrade, when I was doing security Upgrades. Each one had the same discription and everything, except the file sizes were different. Plus, I've had it crash or tell me nothing more than 'install failed'.

Well the whole package managment, i never understood. After a hard time getting X running, I wanted evolution. I installed the slack package for it, only to realize that non of the dependencies was installed, i wasn't even getting told they where missing before i tried to start evolution, and 1.000.000+ dependencies where missing. It's probably just me being to used to apt-get.

Also I had a hard time finding various conf file, but as far as i understand Debian is more away from the standards than slack (that as far as i understand try to keep things the unix way).

I must say that i didn't give it the time i should have, digging into it, but i'm a very impatient person, and after 1 day of struggling i wiped the disk....

I think Slack is a great alternative in linux, I am just not getting along with it.