LinuxQuestions.org
Visit Jeremy's Blog.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Distributions
User Name
Password
Linux - Distributions This forum is for Distribution specific questions.
Red Hat, Slackware, Debian, Novell, LFS, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Fedora - the list goes on and on... Note: An (*) indicates there is no official participation from that distribution here at LQ.

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 12-20-2016, 10:40 AM   #16
nodir
Member
 
Registered: May 2016
Posts: 127

Rep: Reputation: Disabled

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
antiX has managed to put out a working systemd free system - the Devuan camp have been at this for two years and are still hacking away at Debian to remove bits of systemd (such as libsystemd0). antiX are not calling their work a "fork".
Pretty much that.
 
Old 12-20-2016, 10:44 AM   #17
nodir
Member
 
Registered: May 2016
Posts: 127

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
I find it almost disgusting how they (the self-acclaimed-devuan-devs/frauds) keep telling people how they're doing this all for software and user freedom, while only restricting people in choosing their init/whatever system.
Last time i checked you had really hard times using Debian when you want to use an alternate init system (startx failed to start X, iirc). So it is rather Debian which restricts the usage of alternate init systems.
As far it's me: if one wants a non-systemd distro, the better choice is non-debian based (gentoo, slackware and dragora sure don't give me any problems running without systemd).
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 12-24-2016, 09:42 AM   #18
un1x
Member
 
Registered: Oct 2015
Posts: 538

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Unfortunately, systemd is here to stay. The days of devuan are numbered. Presently, most application programs will work with sysv-init. Soon, sysv-init scripts will no longer be packaged with some debian programs that require them. You'll have to write your own. No big deal. But as systemd is developed into it's intended form, distros that don't use it will be primitive by comparison, kind of like graphical FREEDOS vs Windows XP. There is no room to seriously progress without systemd...

Last edited by un1x; 12-24-2016 at 09:43 AM.
 
Old 12-24-2016, 10:37 AM   #19
un1x
Member
 
Registered: Oct 2015
Posts: 538

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmac View Post
I think this distro is what software freedom is all about
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ml#post5645861
 
Old 01-16-2017, 04:23 AM   #20
cynwulf
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,967
Blog Entries: 5

Rep: Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006
Some Devuan people started their own forum. Looks like a good (the best) place to discuss Devuan.

Little activity at the moment but I noticed a thread, which seems like a trend among Devuan users: http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=111

Note that two users in that thread have some kind of *BSD "on the backburner" just in case. For me it makes sense to just switch to Gentoo, Slackware, SalixOS, Dragora, etc, etc, or one of the *BSDs now rather than continuing the delusion that Devuan will one day deliver.

Last edited by cynwulf; 01-16-2017 at 04:24 AM.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-16-2017, 05:36 AM   #21
fatmac
Senior Member
 
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Upper Hale, Surrey/Hants Border, UK
Distribution: AntiX & Vuu-Do.
Posts: 1,861

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: Disabled
My distro of choice has been AntiX (base version) since the demise of #! (Crunchbang), so not likely to switch totally just yet.

However, I have a laptop with Refracta (Devuan based) on it to keep an eye on how things are going.

I've been using Linux, (& sometimes BSD), since 1999, so if systemd (& pulseaudio) do take over Linux, I can easily switch over to BSD myself.

P.S. Switching to a different package management system, would be the same as switching to BSD, I like apt, but find pkg just as easy.

Last edited by fatmac; 01-16-2017 at 05:41 AM.
 
Old 01-16-2017, 08:00 AM   #22
durval
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 16

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Hello un1x (great nickname BTW),

Quote:
Originally Posted by un1x View Post
Unfortunately, systemd is here to stay. The days of devuan are numbered. Presently, most application programs will work with sysv-init. Soon, sysv-init scripts will no longer be packaged with some debian programs that require them. You'll have to write your own. No big deal. But as systemd is developed into it's intended form, distros that don't use it will be primitive by comparison, kind of like graphical FREEDOS vs Windows XP. There is no room to seriously progress without systemd...
Give me FreeDOS plus a good multitasker/multisession system (like DESQView/DESQViewX/GEM/OS2 back in the days) and I would rather use FreeDOS in place of Windows anyday. In fact, I did exactly that until the mid-90s.

Alas, IMHO it was exactly this kind of attitude ("DESQView/DesqviewX/GEM/OS2/whatever-non-MS is doomed") from a large part of IT professionals at the time that *really* doomed these systems and guaranteed Windows domination (which is an evil that we are all still paying for). Self-fulfilling prophecies have a strong tendency to fulfill themselves... but only so far as people act (or cease to act) in ways that favor them. As Sarah Connor has famously said, "There's no fate but what we make". There's no predetermination and the future is ours to shape, so please forgive me for saying it, but "systemd is here to stay" is completely false, what will happen isn't "written" anywhere.

I resisted Windows back then, and I will resist the Windows-ization of Linux which is what Redhat has been attempting with their systemd coup. I will *not* install nor sysadmin any machine running systemd. If everything goes to systemd-hell on the Linux front, I will move to BSD (alas, I ran 386BSD and then FreeBSD from 1991 to 1994, when I migrated to Linux exclusively, so it will not be too much of a problem switching back -- but I would rather stay with Linux if at all possible.

So far Devuan looks the more viable distro for this; no offense against the MX/antiX team or Anticapitalista (all of which are worthy of respect), but Devuan has a great team behind it -- I've been interacting with them on IRC and they are industrious and helpful, and they are legion -- please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the AntiX team is basically Anticapitalista working alone, no?

So far I have Devuan 1.0 beta running on a production physical server and on a production "cloud" KVM instance, this one running docker and a multitude of separate containers for separate tasks, and I haven't had a single issue. I also installed Devuan on a couple of VMs for testing and a graphical/lightweight Devuan-derived distro, MIYO, on a lowly 2010 ASUS EeePC netbook. Again, so far everything works great.

Cheers,
--
Durval.
 
Old 01-16-2017, 09:31 AM   #23
fatmac
Senior Member
 
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Upper Hale, Surrey/Hants Border, UK
Distribution: AntiX & Vuu-Do.
Posts: 1,861

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Yes, I forgot to give MIYO a shout out, I have it installed on a pendrive.
 
Old 01-16-2017, 09:38 AM   #24
cynwulf
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,967
Blog Entries: 5

Rep: Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by durval View Post
Self-fulfilling prophecies have a strong tendency to fulfill themselves... but only so far as people act (or cease to act) in ways that favor them. As Sarah Connor has famously said, "There's no fate but what we make". There's no predetermination and the future is ours to shape, so please forgive me for saying it, but "systemd is here to stay" is completely false, what will happen isn't "written" anywhere.
This is absolutely true, but sadly marketing buzz words and business-speak has taken over... this happened a long time ago and is not centring around systemd, but at some point the hackers and users became developers and customers. With a growing gulf between them. Many of the current crop of users, probably some developers as well, are easily swayed by the rhetoric heavy wordplay of the likes of Poettering and others and are completely sold on the corporate Linux thing and the mission to compete with proprietary desktop OS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by durval View Post
So far Devuan looks the more viable distro for this; no offense against the MX/antiX team or Anticapitalista (all of which are worthy of respect), but Devuan has a great team behind it -- I've been interacting with them on IRC and they are industrious and helpful, and they are legion -- please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the AntiX team is basically Anticapitalista working alone, no?
Many would disagree, but ultimately it's up to you.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-16-2017, 10:26 AM   #25
durval
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 16

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Hi Cynwulf,

Thanks for your response. More below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
This is absolutely true, but sadly marketing buzz words and business-speak has taken over... this happened a long time ago and is not centring around systemd, but at some point the hackers and users became developers and customers. With a growing gulf between them. Many of the current crop of users, probably some developers as well, are easily swayed by the rhetoric heavy wordplay of the likes of Poettering and others and are completely sold on the corporate Linux thing and the mission to compete with proprietary desktop OS.
All we can do is to not accept any compromise with them. I will not, as I didn't with Windows.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by durval View Post
So far Devuan looks the more viable distro for this; no offense against the MX/antiX team or Anticapitalista (all of which are worthy of respect), but Devuan has a great team behind it -- I've been interacting with them on IRC and they are industrious and helpful, and they are legion -- please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the AntiX team is basically Anticapitalista working alone, no?
Many would disagree, but ultimately it's up to you.
If I'm making any incorrect assumptions that you can set me straight at, I will be grateful if you do.

Cheers,
--
Durval.
 
Old 01-16-2017, 03:57 PM   #26
cynwulf
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,967
Blog Entries: 5

Rep: Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006Reputation: 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by durval View Post
If I'm making any incorrect assumptions that you can set me straight at, I will be grateful if you do.
AntiX is a Debian derivative, it's been around for several years and stood the test of time. They have put out a systemd free distribution.

Devuan is a Debian derivative, passing itself off as a "fork", which in two years has achieved little. In my opinion it's primarily a taking shop, but you should do your own investigation and draw your own conclusions.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-17-2017, 05:51 AM   #27
fatmac
Senior Member
 
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Upper Hale, Surrey/Hants Border, UK
Distribution: AntiX & Vuu-Do.
Posts: 1,861

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Devuan will be a viable base system, once it has sorted out the mess Debian has made with systemd taking over a lot of previously usable software projects. This takes time & resourses, but they will get there.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-17-2017, 09:29 AM   #28
rokytnji
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Waaaaay out West Texas
Distribution: AntiX 17 , ChromeOS
Posts: 5,124
Blog Entries: 20

Rep: Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383Reputation: 2383
Naw Durval. AntiX has help. From people like me and others. We just don't walk around in the lime light is all. Anti is the brains. We are the legs and arms.

There is probably a lot about AntiX you are unaware of since you have not ran it over years like me and others. We got some good coders also.

Anyways. I just stopped by here to say. Damn FatMac. You stirred up a hornets nest here it seems.
Like showing up at a Baptist church service and saying at the top of your lungs, "Hail Satan!".

I tried DragonFly BSD and few others like Ghost BSD. I think I'll stick with Puppy Linux instead.
I wanna live forever. But I will probably be long gone when all these systemd worries, like a zombie apocalypse. Effects this scooter tramp down by the Mexican Border.

I have not tried Devuan yet. Still trying to remember how to spell it first I guess. I got enough gear to give it a spin. But riding bicycles and motorcycles are more fun lately than computers.

Edit: sorry bro. I don't know enough yet about Devuan to post a link about another Systemd free distro based on Devuan.

Last edited by rokytnji; 01-17-2017 at 09:34 AM.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-17-2017, 08:45 PM   #29
durval
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 16

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Hi Fatmac,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmac View Post
Devuan will be a viable base system, once it has sorted out the mess Debian has made with systemd taking over a lot of previously usable software projects. This takes time & resourses, but they will get there.
I beg to differ: I think Devuan is a viable system *now*. I just hope they get it out of beta soon, as the "beta" label makes it improper for a number of uses (eg, installing on customer's computers).

Cheers,
--
Durval.
 
Old 01-17-2017, 09:14 PM   #30
durval
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 16

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Hi cynwulf,

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
AntiX is a Debian derivative, it's been around for several years and stood the test of time. They have put out a systemd free distribution.
*sigh* I'm coming to the conclusion that I really need to experiment with antiX first-hand. Which one would you suggest, antiX proper or MX? I need it to run on a variety of scenarios, from minimum VM installs to heavy headless servers to fully featured graphical desktops. I would also like it if I could install it on ARM SBCs like the Raspberry Pis to run Kodi on my media center. I also use ZFS extensively and would therefore like to use the standard support which the ZFSOnLinux folks have put out and maintain for plain Debian: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/zfs-linux

Thanks is advance for your advice.

Quote:
Devuan is a Debian derivative, passing itself off as a "fork", which in two years has achieved little.
You know, this is one thing I actually like about Devuan: it's basically Debian without systemd (well, almost none of it anyway). This means everything from Debian works as expected, no muss and no fuss.

Quote:
In my opinion it's primarily a taking shop, but you should do your own investigation and draw your own conclusions.
I'm sorry to disagree with you, but I can attest from first-hand experience that Devuan is *not* just a "talking shop". My experience so far, with a couple of installs running for a few months, has been entirely flawless. And their IRC channel is a great resource, if you hang around you will talk to the development team in realtime and they will answer questions and generally lend a hand. I've enjoyed their help more than once (basically because of my lack of experience with Debian, as I've spent the better part of the last 2 decades running mostly Redhat-based OSes, with just a few stints on Debian-land)

That said, I agree Devuan development is slower than I'd like (after more than 2 years it ought to be out of beta already), and that they made quite a splash on the distro scene, but I don't think the former is too much of a problem as the betas actually work very well, and that the latter (as unfair as it might be to antiX as an industrious pioneer in the land of systemd-free systems) is not actually their "fault" -- it seems that the press and bloggers and etc have somehow latched onto them, perhaps because of the catchy name or whatever.

Cheers,
--
Durval.

Last edited by durval; 01-17-2017 at 09:16 PM.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Devuan biosboy4 Linux - Distributions 2 07-11-2016 08:39 PM
Distributions based on Devuan... un1x Debian 7 07-10-2016 09:34 PM
Devuan based & systemd free distro fatmac Linux - Distributions 1 06-15-2015 10:48 AM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Distributions

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:57 AM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration