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Old 12-09-2016, 10:55 PM   #16
c0wb0y
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But then again the foundation of every complex setup is the understanding of "VERY narrow goal". Maybe configuring FTP will help you how to troubleshoot SFTP. Maybe by doing that, you come to realize you are actually using the same tools, albeit used in different combinations.
 
Old 12-10-2016, 02:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Over here , people insist on certification , because its all market value here.
that is why I said its good to see , that some people focus on skills , which is a core requirement to do the job (hency happy with the difference).

RH-- exams take some effort to clear. Its not a brain-dump exercise. You need have "some" experience with the system and with fumbling and trying , you succeed. Besides linux is so vast, you cannot possibly know everything . Once you get the hang of the system its fairly easy to operate it. As such the man pages give all the options , and with little experience people are good to go.

IMO attacking certifications is done by people who do not have any. One person failing in his skills despite certifications does not necessarily mean all are like that , and likewise you can argue the other way round , that not having them doesnt mean that they are useless.

I didnt say you should necessarily have them, but its always good to have. Added with 5 years of experience like the guy has, it will be better for future job prospects.

If skills were all that important , why send children to school , med school , college at all ?
They could simply go to a public library and say I have the skills now , just employ me.

Would you trust someone , who said he had 5 years of surgeon experience , to do a brain surgery if he/she was not certified as a doctor?

You are comparing a 10 year experienced driver with a 16 aged new learner.

If you were asked to choose between 2 freshers, one with RH-- cert and one without it , obviously the stakes are in favour of the certified guy.
 
Old 12-10-2016, 10:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu_penguin View Post
that is why I said its good to see , that some people focus on skills , which is a core requirement to do the job (hency happy with the difference).

RH-- exams take some effort to clear. Its not a brain-dump exercise. You need have "some" experience with the system and with fumbling and trying , you succeed. Besides linux is so vast, you cannot possibly know everything . Once you get the hang of the system its fairly easy to operate it. As such the man pages give all the options , and with little experience people are good to go.
Skills are the ONLY things you should focus on. Because without the skills, ANY certification is pointless. If you have the skills, you don't have to study, get books, dumps, etc...you can walk into an exam and pass easily.
Quote:
IMO attacking certifications is done by people who do not have any. One person failing in his skills despite certifications does not necessarily mean all are like that , and likewise you can argue the other way round , that not having them doesnt mean that they are useless.
I have several certifications, thanks, along with numerous college degrees; how many do you have? The reason I stopped getting them is they're useless after a fairly short time (as said), and from the conversations I've had with others in the classes, who boast about how their friend told them the stuff they needed to do, and that's all they came into the exam with. Nothing more.

I've met FAR too many people with certifications who clearly didn't have the skills to back them up..too many for it to be a coincidence.
Quote:
I didnt say you should necessarily have them, but its always good to have. Added with 5 years of experience like the guy has, it will be better for future job prospects.
Only for companies that aren't worth working for.
Quote:
If skills were all that important , why send children to school , med school , college at all ? They could simply go to a public library and say I have the skills now , just employ me.
Thank you for illustrating exactly why the 'certs' are POINTLESS. You don't get a certification to GET THE KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS, you get a certification to PROVE YOU ALREADY HAVE THEM. You are putting things in the exact opposite order....you don't go into a certification class knowing NOTHING about Linux, and come out with good skills...that's what schools/experience/training centers are for. And that is why most of the folks with the 'certs' don't deserve having them, for this exact mindset.
Quote:
Would you trust someone , who said he had 5 years of surgeon experience , to do a brain surgery if he/she was not certified as a doctor? You are comparing a 10 year experienced driver with a 16 aged new learner.
But the 16 year old has their 'certification' right??? Doesn't that mean they know EVERYTHING about how to do the job???? No, it doesn't. And your example above is still pointless. There are MANY doctors who move from one country to another, and are brilliant...but the processes for a license vary, along with the SKILLS needed to get one. So yes, I'd take the doctor who has been practicing for five years, over someone who's never done it before in real life, thanks.
Quote:
If you were asked to choose between 2 freshers, one with RH-- cert and one without it , obviously the stakes are in favour of the certified guy.
Wrong. I would interview them BOTH, and a 'fresher' with a certification means that they have as little experience as the first guy...giving them ZERO advantage. I want to know how people think and troubleshoot things, and about their character.

A typical interview (and I don't do many, because I pay my people well, and haven't had any turnover in three years), is I'll call references..ALL of them, and not the name they list on the resume, because I don't need to talk to their friends. If they get past that (and I DO call people and tell them to not lie again, if their manager's name wasn't listed on the resume), they come in for an interview. After I talk with them, I get them into our lab, with ZERO internet access, and no phones allowed, and give them tasks to accomplish. Nothing huge and hard, but things that show how they think. And a perfectly acceptable answer to some of the tasks is "I don't know", or "I couldn't get it to work, but I got this...", and then we have a discussion about how they'd try to fix it. I'll take an honest person who wants to learn on their own, and can think logically on their own any day, certification or no.
 
Old 12-10-2016, 10:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
I've seen far too many 'certified' folks who lack the skills...
What certs are we talking here? Microsoft? Cisco? CompTIA?

If you are talking about those that only require you to guess at an answer then I am incline to agree with you. I have seen it myself as someone I worked with did this exact thing to get his MCSE. Why do you think hiring manager worth their weight doesn't look highly on Microsoft certs these days? Because the word is out you don't need to know anything to pass them. A day of memorization and you pass.

I'm sure you could point out a lot of cases where this holds true but I challenge you to point out a case where a RHCE doesn't know what he is doing. Sure you have to memorize what commands do what and how they work but that doesn't mean you are cheating or doesn't mean you took a brain dump to pass the test and it dam sure doesn't mean you cannot do the job. And in a timed scenario your memory is going to let you down if you don't know what you are doing in the first 10 minutes.

I stick to my original challenge, show me a RHCE or RHSCA that passed on a brain dump and doesn't know what he is doing.
 
Old 12-10-2016, 10:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Miller View Post
How much more real world than setting at a computer with red had installed and being told to set up x users, x programs, x security starting with a base minimal install of RH without being done in the real world is there?

While I admit the CompTIA certs can be passed through brain dumps, the RH-- tests are EXTREMELY valuable. Anyone who can pass the test knows what they're doing on a RH system. It might not be the be all and end all of knowledge, but they definitely know what they're doing to the degree that the cert says they do; ie - RHCSA knows basic installation, local configuration, local shares, local users. RHCE knows everything an RHCSA does plus basic network shares, basic firewall, basic networking, etc.

There's simply no way to pass them with a brain dump type course.
Pass solely from them? No...but you'll get enough from them to give you a buy on some of the stuff. And again, I've seen too many people who will sit with their buddies after a test, and essentially get the ENTIRE exam handed to them.

I'm not saying they're easy, but I AM saying their weight is little to nothing for me, and for most of the companies I've dealt with over the years, at least in the US. And again, I've met numerous people with these RHCE 'certifications' who could NOT perform basic skills and day-to-day operations.
Quote:
Yes, there may be scenarios they don't encounter, but you can have 30 years experience and you're still going to encounter something that you've never seen before, so by that line of thought, noone would ever qualify for a job because they don't know EVERYTHING. If a company runs RHEL/CentOS, and what they want a person to do is covered by one of the RH-- certs, than anyone with that cert will be able to do it IMO. Yes, the differences may make them have to think for a few minutes, but if they know the basics of configuring these things well enough to pass a test where THEY ACTUALLY INSTALL & CONFIGURE FROM NOTHING, then they're going to be able to figure it out in the real world too.
Yes, there are always things you've not encountered before, and always will be. But there are still FAR too many people who have 'certs' that don't deserve them, which is why I give them zero weight, but put everything on their skills and them as people. Just look around at this site...I'll not mention a user name, but there's someone on this site the "RHCE" in their user name...who can't figure out how to delete files older than one day, how to find how much memory in their machine, how to use SCP, or the basics of shell scripting. Yet they claim to have an RHCE, and work for a Red Hat Certification Center. And you're telling me that person is qualified?
 
Old 12-10-2016, 11:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazydog View Post
What certs are we talking here? Microsoft? Cisco? CompTIA?
Cisco and Microsoft, mostly.
Quote:
If you are talking about those that only require you to guess at an answer then I am incline to agree with you. I have seen it myself as someone I worked with did this exact thing to get his MCSE. Why do you think hiring manager worth their weight doesn't look highly on Microsoft certs these days? Because the word is out you don't need to know anything to pass them. A day of memorization and you pass.
Exactly.
Quote:
I'm sure you could point out a lot of cases where this holds true but I challenge you to point out a case where a RHCE doesn't know what he is doing. Sure you have to memorize what commands do what and how they work but that doesn't mean you are cheating or doesn't mean you took a brain dump to pass the test and it dam sure doesn't mean you cannot do the job. And in a timed scenario your memory is going to let you down if you don't know what you are doing in the first 10 minutes.

I stick to my original challenge, show me a RHCE or RHSCA that passed on a brain dump and doesn't know what he is doing.
I could email you a list of names as long as your arm of folks who claim to have those certifications, and didn't know what they were doing, if I didn't mind being sued. But I can't tell you if that was their sole method of passing, only that they claimed to have such certifications. I will say that 95% of them were from outsourcing companies, who crowed about how all of their people had LOTS of certifications, and they would get on the phone and say they did. Their work was less than impressive..if you're an RHCE who can't create an LVM and add space to it....there is something wrong with the certification process, or they're lying.

Again, I'm not saying that everyone who has one doesn't deserve it, or take away ANYTHING from those who work hard to get one...what I AM saying is that there are loads of people who take the easy path, and get questions/answers/dumps, and get a passing grade. This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu_penguin
If skills were all that important , why send children to school , med school , college at all ? They could simply go to a public library and say I have the skills now , just employ me.
...says it all, in my mind. You get a certification/diploma AFTER you have the skills and training needed...not the other way around. In the military, the term was "embrace the suck". Yeah, it's great and all to jump out of planes, or hang on a line under a helio, etc., but for every minute of stuff that's even remotely fun/exciting, you don't see the gazillion hours of classroom junk, tests, practice, etc., that is NOT fun, in order to get 'certified' to go do the fun thing.

This is the same; you don't take a test and magically have the skills afterwards...you go INTO the test to prove you already DO possess them, because you have embraced the suck, and hacked/worked your way through everything, and have the skills to back up your claims.
 
Old 12-10-2016, 11:17 AM   #22
lazydog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
Cisco and Microsoft, mostly.

Exactly.

I could email you a list of names as long as your arm of folks who claim to have those certifications, and didn't know what they were doing....[/code]

I'm sure you are talking about the above names certs here. Or do you have the same with the RH certs?

[code]
This is the same; you don't take a test and magically have the skills afterwards...you go INTO the test to prove you already DO possess them, because you have embraced the suck, and hacked/worked your way through everything, and have the skills to back up your claims.
Exactly, you cannot pass the RH test without knowing what you are doing.
 
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:54 PM   #23
pingu_penguin
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Exactly, you cannot pass the RH test without knowing what you are doing.
lol.

Quote:
you get a certification to PROVE YOU ALREADY HAVE THEM.
And thank you for proving MY point.
 
Old 12-10-2016, 06:46 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazydog View Post
Exactly, you cannot pass the RH test without knowing what you are doing.
Don't want to split hairs, but yes, you can. You can pass a test, and not be competent at your job. As said, I've met many such people...and either the claim to have them and don't, or have them and are not competent. In either case...the certification proves itself worthless as a judge of is someone good at their job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pingu_penguin
And thank you for proving MY point.
Wrong. As I've maintained, the SKILLS matter...you go to SCHOOL TO LEARN, THEN get a diploma. You're saying that you should get a certification to GET the skills, which is totally backwards. A certification says you SHOULD have the skills...and most that I've encountered DO NOT. If you think a certification is the be-all and end-all, and is some sort of golden ticket, you're sadly mistaken. If people where you live think that a certification is worth more than the paper it's printed on, that's great...go get a dozen of them, and do whatever you can do with them.

Personally, the OP asked whether it's worth it or not...as an employer, and as someone who has worked for companies huge and small, I can tell you they're given very little weight at all. Show up with five certifications, and it won't get you ANY further in the process 95%+ of the time.
 
Old 12-19-2016, 08:47 AM   #25
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To my way of thinking, these things are roughly equivalent to what a Community College evening class used to be (back when you could get an associate's degree for maybe a thousand bucks max). You sat in a classroom and worked through what were called "labs," or "practicums." The instructor was there "to help you, but not too much."

I have taught such courses in the past.

There are many young people today (in the USA) who are both "professional students" and conditioned (in the wrong way ...) by the fact that the tests they took were always multiple-choice and they basically were not allowed to fail. (Since, if they did, the teacher would get fired.)

What they "learned" to do was to "Google it." But, they didn't learn anything else. I think that you see this today in various LQ threads in which the first thing that someone does when faced with a problem is to fairly-indiscriminately dump everything (except the one thing needed in order to answer the question ) into a thread and say, "help me do my job for me."

Certifications, in my book, are nothing more and nothing less than continuing education ... which your employer should pay for as part of his investment in his staff. Unfortunately, they are frighteningly expensive, and there is little if any curating being done to make sure that there is an actual educational experience (and that the people who won't do it, don't get a piece of paper). There is a tremendous lack of quality control.
 
Old 12-27-2016, 07:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom165 View Post
Hello ,

I have been on the fence about this for quite sometime. Should I pay to get the Red Hat System Administrator certification ? To give some background, I live in New York and have over 5 years of professional experience with RHEL. Recently, I was scheduled to take the certification test and it was cancelled due to lack of registration. This got me thinking, is this cert even worth having ? Will it help me get a promotion or a new job with more system admin responsibility ? I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on this.
I know that Red Hat has classes/training called Guaranteed To Run or GTR. In that no matter how many folks sign up, they will run the class.

Did you check your area for job postings that are looking for RHCSA/RHCE certs? That is typically a good gauge if that cert is in demand or not...
 
Old 01-02-2017, 09:08 AM   #27
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And always remember the Willy Wonka Principle:
Quote:
"This is not Willy Wonka. There is no 'Golden Ticket!'"
There is no "magic piece of paper" ... not a certification, not a degree, not a PhD ... that will guarantee you a job in this business, or keep you from getting it.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-02-2017 at 09:18 AM.
 
Old 01-02-2017, 09:11 AM   #28
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http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs...ervations.html


Quote:
You can make it without certification, degrees, and training classes but it's going to be a steeper road. There are going to be HR filters and middle management working against you and it might take longer than your peers who do have those things. One forum member had some sage advice on why he works so hard for degrees and his other pieces of paper even with years of experience under his belt: "Getting a job and staying competitive in the job market is like going to war. I want to have all the ammo I can have to be the most effective and those degrees and certifications are just more bullets and ammunition for me." This is true. If two candidates are applying for the same job with comparable experience, but one has a degree or a certification and the other does not, who do you think will probably get the job if all other things are equal? More than that, who do you think will have better leverage for salary negotiation?
 
Old 01-02-2017, 01:29 PM   #29
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Hi,

From http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...ml#post5649145
Quote:
You can make it without certification, degrees, and training classes but it's going to be a steeper road. There are going to be HR filters and middle management working against you and it might take longer than your peers who do have those things. One forum member had some sage advice on why he works so hard for degrees and his other pieces of paper even with years of experience under his belt: "Getting a job and staying competitive in the job market is like going to war. I want to have all the ammo I can have to be the most effective and those degrees and certifications are just more bullets and ammunition for me." This is true. If two candidates are applying for the same job with comparable experience, but one has a degree or a certification and the other does not, who do you think will probably get the job if all other things are equal? More than that, who do you think will have better leverage for salary negotiation?
Not always this way. It depends on ones preparedness for that particular job or interview. I know admins that can work circles around guys who have degrees or certifications. How one handles their self when speaking to a qualified interviewer means a lot and will weigh just as much as to the weight of degrees or certs.

Academic achievement can show what you learned but not how you can apply that acquired information. Test can be prepared for so the certs are the same. You can jam all the information in but can you use that same info in real life.

If one is already at a position then the HR may weigh certs or continuing education. Your merits at the company along with evaluations will weigh more than any cert. I have seen to many book smart people who could theorize but could not practically apply their knowledge. That is not to say someone can improve their abilities and then practically apply thus moving forward within a job. And when you wish to move on then hopefully your supervisor will supply a good recommendation for the new position based on your merits over the years.

Personally, I will give someone a closer look that can communicate during the interview with positive feedback rather than someone who boasts about their certs. Not to say one cannot be proud of their achievements but to do so politely when queried.

Read to many resume that were just recipe or cookbook generated that would never get past the first read. Certs a plenty but not rounded with good information that could be used to determine quality of the applicant.

Salary negotiations are the last phase in most professional interviews, usually the third level. When I interviewed, I had the general salary options before hand from my personal inquiries and would negotiate from there. So if someone gets to that level then possibly their qualifications will level the base salary range that would be available. When one has a good network of friends or colleagues to rely on then job opportunities will fall into your lap if you are qualified.

Last edited by onebuck; 01-02-2017 at 01:30 PM.
 
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Old 01-02-2017, 02:58 PM   #30
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I agree that this "challenging assertion," which seeks to answer its own question mostly by an appeal to reason, really does not make a compelling argument at all.

The implication of "certifications" is that they are somehow more than "continuing education." That you are, indeed, "certified" by someone-or-other. But there's really no follow-through at all on that. Two people might be awarded the same piece of paper after going through a radically different training experience ... or, none at all.

Having myself hired many people over the years, I can tell you that it mostly depends on the interviewer's gut, and on the candidate's basic human-communication skill. Does this person project confidence and knowledge, and is he also quick to say, "I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to that, but ...?" Do you feel like you and/or your team could actually work with this person for the next several years to come?

Because, if you do hire this person, that is what you hope and expect to do!
 
  


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