Linspire possibly putting Linux in Schools
 

People can hate on Linspire all they want. Linspire could possibly give Linux the breakthrough it needs in America--schools:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1844695,00.asp

Even if it's just getting people comfortable with the KDE interface and Linux in general, Linspire would be doing desktop Linux in general a great favor.

Good stuff, and about time.

its only to be expected that schools are gonna try out a Corporate distro first, simply because they NEED to know that they will recive any need support for their applicatons, and becasue if your gonna teach linux to kids, you need a frienly linux to do it with. Id rather see them using slackware, but the point is that they are setting a precident by using a non-ms os. Im sure their experiment will go better than they could have ever hoped, as long as they stick with it long enough to give it a fair chance :)

Kahless - nice. Do you want to edit out the Corporate...... comment please.

If they didn't use a "Corporate" distro, how would they get all those computers set up? Hire you?

This is what Slackware's website says about support:
We provide installation support and limited technical support to our users through email as well as phone. If you need a wider range of support options, you should consider a third-party technical support company. These companies offer a wide range of support options, including standard phone support and support contracts..

Schools and corporations don't want that. They want a company itself backing the product. If it wasn't Linspire, it would have been Novell or Red Hat.

Well considering Linspire is not that big of a operation I can only see the rollout being handled internally by the school system OR by a third-party contracted team. I dont think being dependant on any one company is EVER a good idea. There is no guarantee that any corporate linux will be able to stay in business and looking at past track records I would have to say it doesnt look good. So I think a third-party contracted support may be the wisest and at least with a non-corporate distro it will either be around for a long time (debian,slack) or even if the distro does disappear you will have everything needed to provide it on your own so you never have to worry about them closing up shop and taking something you need. I would also point out that some corporations/governments have chosen debian recently as their distro of choice, if I am not mistaken! I can only think they would go this route because they are completely free by going with a non-corporate distro. Now something like Libranet which is a "easy" distro but still pretty much "free" (freedom) and very debian compatible might would of been a excellent choice. I only mention Libranet as a example, I am sure there are otehrs. And Ubuntu may have been a good choice especially if mark? would really like to move linux to the mainstream... Just my thoughts....

You might have some good poinst Jake but remember these are schools and companies.
Going with Debian GNU/Linux or any other distro might be "better" from your point of view but a standard Debian installation and setup would take longer then a Linspire setup (about 10 minutes per system) and most needed stuff is already installed. so for a school or company with a large amount of workstations Linspire (or any other commercial distro with a fast intstaller) would be a better choice. And there is offcourse the support isue, Companies don't like to depend on a "community" of people to do tech support, they want a company (person) they can hold responsible and who they can contact to do their support. (Hence why there is the RedHat enterprise and others).

Also, we have to consider the learning curve. In many schools the teacher and teacher's helper may be merely "assigned" the subject, they won't necessarily be subject matter experts.

Double clicking on CNR is a lot more simple that even the ./configure and so on.

Also, what are the pcs being used for? If it's just word processing, email, browsing the Linspire is ideal - set it up quickly (and rebuild quickly if necessary) and the look and feel is similar to Windows.

Well I don't know how it is now, but when I was in highschool (about 8-9 years ago) the only think we learned was basic MS-DOS (was before the Windows 95 hype :D) and some simple Shell that had some simple programs. not realy much. The most advanced was "programming" and that was basically giving a "car" the commands to move forward,left,right,back and stuff like that.
So I guess a Linspire PC would be ideal for stuff like that, offcourse if they want to run a server they are better with a server oriented distro.

Hehe - we learned BASIC on VIC20s and Commodore 64s and BBC Micros. :) But yeah, Linspire for basic desktop stuff teaching and Debian/Slack/RH/Novell or whatever for the server. Of course, if they are looking to have a full blown Linux network I'd hope they'd have a decent server admin to look after it all.

Well I feel like synaptic is as easy as other distros single click installers, yes it is more steps (3 clicks or so) but still AS easy. With synaptic you can sit up your own repsitory and have ONLY known working packages and restrict what users install or dont install. Is there some way to stop student1 from downloading and running the latest games via CNR?

You can also setup a apt-cache so each package is only downloaded from the net ONE time and then on it is on the cache machine and pulled from there. That would certainly be a boon instead of 100 students all of a sudden clogging the schools internet pipe each downloading the same package via CNR or some other packager.

I dont see the initial installation as the big problem. Hopefully it is a one time thing. It sure would be if it was debian, since you can apt upgrades! Can you cnr upgrades? I can see that 10min install losing the advantage when you have to do it for every upgrade. Of course it is also possible to script debian and create your own install. So you could create a 'yourschool' theme along with it. So many more options with debian.

Of course my main point was that by going with a corporate distro they are at least somewhat tied to that distro and should it close doors then they have almost nothing. The other point was about 'support' being better with a corporate distro and while that MAY be the case (arguable case) the fact is once again if that company closes shop then that 'support' also ceases. I think instead of paying for the corporate support you would hire a linux guru that could provide all the tweaking you need to make sure the distro provides you with exactly what you want.

But I am positive that linspire will be working VERY hard on making this a success so they will probably go out of there way to make sure this flys! So may go off without a hitch!

How will the schools deal with all of them running as root to make sure all software operates properly?

Oh btw debian was just a example, certainly nothing that cannot be applied to most non-corporate distros as well and even some corporate ones or at least corporate backed.

needless to say I will be watching closely :)

You've probably also got some kind of back room deal going on - Linspire gets tested in the schools (probably for 'free') and then finds it's way onto either the rest of the school network or into the local government network.

But, if it gets Linux out there, I'm all for it. I'd rather have the students say "Linspire is too easy an limited, I'm going to get Debian/Slack/whatever" than say "Linux is too haaaaaard! It sucks". :)

Dunno, but maybe they don't even care. Remember they come from the Windows world and before NT there was no big difference between User/Admin on windows and it's only since SP2 that Windows is becomming more strict about it.
Everybody I know who run XP runs it as Admin. and the people who have 2 kids have 4 acounts (2 for the parents and 2 for the kids) ALL setup as Admin.
When I was in school (last 2 years) we had to use some software to design print-board (electronics) and that was done on Windows (think it was 98) machines. We NEVER got any restriction in using it. I was even given the password to the "Digiac" (learning system) program so I could fix it if another student made a mistake (I could even change their grades if I wanted).
So I guess they don't care about security as much as the average Linux user :D

I would find it hard to believe that a school wouldn't care about the users (students) running as root. I dont think I seen what level of school this is being rolled out in. Lower grades wouldn't be a problem of course but once you reach middle school and upper grades I can just imagine the trouble that would bring! :) I would say if you want to have a successful program you will have to have some type of security or else it will be considered a failure due to the reinstalls and so forth. I know my daughter in middle school has to log on to use the computer but I do not know if it is a generic account or truly some type of authentication. I think you will find a lot of high schools are on domains and have user accounts. And of course EVERY college I have attended has been on a domain of some sort for a good while. Dont forget how popular novell was and that was a good many years ago! But you might be right. I am certainly all for it, I just wish a more open, non-corporate distro had been chosen. Question - Could a non-corporate distro try and "sell" their distro and offer customizations to large customers without being considered to be turning into a "corporate" distro? probably not huh..... So maybe the reason they went with linspire is the local sales rep made a good pitch and if xandros or any other had came by including a debian rep(if existed) they would be using that instead. oh well, i am rambling.... good form-getting linux out there, bad form-chosing a corporate distro to do it with! :)

Jake, We've been over this before....

As far as running as root or not. Why do they have to run as root, why wouldn't they just give the student s a USER and PASSWORD and then prohibit them from installing ANY software. I'm sure that the IT department will install software that works for the USER level, is the equivalent of the MS programs they are now using, and then not allow the students (users) to install any software. That is the way things are done in COLLEGE LEVEL computer labs, so why not JR HIGH/SR HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL, which if you had read the article rather than glanced over it, you'd know that it is JR/HS Level.......Randolph Southern Jr./Sr. High School.

I think it is a great initiative and will help Linuxstart to gain traction.

They don't have to run as root. I think the point was brought up because Linspire 5.0 (like Windows) ships with a default-to-root user. In the Linspire setup, it never asks you to create a user. But if school IT administrators aren't giving Windows users administrative privileges, there's no reason to think they would give Linux users root privileges.

Actually Linspire does ask you if you want to creat USER accounts during installation. HERE IS A LINK TO THE SCREENSHOT.

So, once again, why do they HAVE to run as ROOT? When they create USER accounts (which can be done suring installation) it will give them a Log-In screen with options... ROOT, USER 1, USER 2, etc. And I'm sure the school system isn't flying blind on this either. They either have documentation, or a REP from Wintergreen Systems (who had been preinstalling LOS for the past few years) onsite to help them through the first couple of installations. Truth of the matter is, none of KNOW how the units are shipping.

The IT department, I'm sure has dealt with MS machines, that also ship by default as the Administrator. If they are getting the Linspire machine preinstalled without USERS (the same as the would Windows machines), then setting up USER accounts is very simple (as it is in Windows)..... LAUNCH>SETTINGS>ADDITIONAL OPTION>USER MANAGER (KUser)

Windows never ask for Users Accounts to be created either...

Yes, I looked at your screenshot, and I've actually installed Linspire 5.0 myself. I don't consider that to be "asking" you to create a user account. It gives you the option to create a user account, but so does Windows. Most other Linux distros actually ask you (more or less force you, really) to create a user account.

Yes, my point exactly--read the above post (same points, just not in ALL CAPS). I don't see why you're getting so worked up. Nobody said Linspire forces you to operate as root and so the schools must be having their students run as root. The question was brought up, "Will they run as root?" The answer is probably no, as you and I have both pointed out, considering that Windows generally defaults to administrator, but most school IT admins set up students as users. The same will probably happen for Linspire.

Don't get me wrong, not getting all worked up (unfortunately with forums and text it is always difficult to tell how a person it saying things, and sorry about the ALL CAPS, I generally do a lot of instructional writing and it is a habit to emphasis important points, one I don't realize I'm doing all the time.)

I think it is great that these machines are being put into the schools no matter what distro, but I do think that Linspire is a great distro for the linux novice and therefore one of the obvious choices to incorporate into schools (Xandros, PCLOS, MEPIS and others are also good for the linux novice).

I just didn't want there to be any misconceptions about the whole "running as root" and Linspire dead horse that has been beaten, and beaten, and beaten. If I came off as argumentive, I apologize, I was not at all upset, just trying to clear any preconcieved ideas about USERS and ROOT for any of the readers, that's all.

I have to agree that

1. The tone of written communication can easily be misinterpreted. I obviously misinterpreted yours
2. Lots of people have misconceptions of Linspire

I've actually tried Linspire, and I have to say that I'm disappointed they don't make more of an effort to discourage people from running as root. Still, as you and I have both stated, it's highly unlikely that school IT folk will let high school students run as root.

And I was just pointing out what I have read at other forums. Some corporate distros have problems with software install, proper permission, and in some cases software just not working correctly as a non-root user.

Oh and if anyone thinks fedora, suse community(name forthcoming), debian, is three nerds sitting in a basement then I would have to say first that you are wrong. And in at least a few cases that those three nerds built the basis of the majority of corporate distros. And I would think IF debian could allow it then having the school system fund a debian endorsed project and fund developers to work specifically on their rollout and support that would be the BEST support you could ask for.

I am saying that numerous options exist and are all valid. However one option is that instead of paying and depending on a company for support hire a linux guru or team of gurus to roll out a non-corporate solution. That way it can be tweaked to your needs and you never have to worry about a company going out of business. I am at least willing to say their are numerous options and they all have their pros and cons. You cant? Can you do nothing but proclaim your corporate distro as the end-all and be-all! Can you not even admit that there are other options that have some good advantages to it.

Thats right, as someone else put it.... Linspire is the only chance linux has for beating microsoft.

Yes Xavier I was trying to be nice but I can only resist the hulk side of me for so long :)

Well, no one thinks SuSE or Fedora are made of a couple of "nerds" sitting in a basement. After all, we're talking Novell and Red Hat, here. You have to admit, though, for a school administrator who knows nothing about Linux, this website looks a lot more "corporate" and "stable" than this one.

and if this is true

and they are simply going to be users the wouldnt any distro suite the purpose....

In fact you could use older computers, even ones they may currently have and install a lighter distro with less hardware requriements. You could also decide exactly the software you want instead of being required to install the whole mozilla suite for example.

Dont get me wrong, this is good....but in my opinion could of been better. :) ... aww heck why do I bother...

GO LINSP.... I just cant do it.... :) GO LINUX! as close as I can get

No one's arguing that Linspire is clearly the best choice for schools, as far as I can tell.
I'm just happy Linux is getting there in some form. If a school admin asked me, "We're thinking of putting Linux in schools, which version should we choose?" my first response would not be "Linspire." However, now that they've chosen Linspire, I'm not going to complain that they're using Linux.

And the article seems to indicate that it wasn't schools saying, "Hey, let's get some Linux in here." It was more Linspire taking the initiative to push itself into/offer itself to schools, and the schools possibly accepting this offer.

Looks are not a good thing to base anything on. Linspires site certainly looks more corporate, flashy, selling, type of site than debian. But the fact that debian has been in "biz" since the early 90s, the fact that they have spawned over a 100 other distros, the fact they produce the "largest" distro, along with the fact that a majority of corporate distros that focus most on selling go out of business within a handful of years probably paints non-corporate debian as more stable and more likely to be around in the long run. IMO of course :)

but enough said, i will comment no more for fear of the wrath of Xavier :)

Jake, I'm not going to get into a pi**ing match with you over this. I'm just saying that even with the exhalted WINDOWS XP, users in a college level computer lab have ZERO access to installing software, so it makes sense that that would more than likely be the model that is used. It is how things are done in the local HSs here already....by HERE I mean in my little neck of Indiana.

Because Linspire is the distro that has been chosen. Linspire is probably the distro that went after the school. Wintergreen Systems, the computer supplier, preinstalls Linspire. If other distros go after a project like this, then maybe they will be used. Like the old saying goes, You'll never know unless you ask. Apparently these other distros aren't asking, and if they are, we just haven't heard about it yet.

I never claimed that MY corporate distro was the "end all and be all!". In fact, if you refer back to this quote...."...Linspire is a great distro for the linux novice and therefore one of the obvious choices to incorporate into schools (Xandros, PCLOS, MEPIS and others are also good for the linux novice)." you'd notice that there are two distros listed as well as "others" that aren't "corporate" distros. And that I said that Linspire was ONE of the obvious CHOICES But, then again, had you actually read the post instead of reading into what you wanted to, you would have known that too. Yes, and this time I am a little aggitated, because this "I am at least willing to say.....You cant?" appears to be a personal attack and an implication that I am closed minded, which I am obviously not.

This was an article about Linspire being implemented into a school system. I am happy for them and think it will help LINUX AS A WHOLE gain traction. Not just Linspire. Just because I use Linspire on a daily basis does not mean that I do not want to see other distros succeed.

I am through posting in this thread since it has taken a turn from being about a school system implementing a desktop linux....that just happens to be Linspire.....to let's compare the commercial distro to the *gratis* distro. We can argue the pros and cons about commercial and gratis all day long but it still is not going to change the fact the this school system is installing 125 Linspire Linux computers. Which is, IMHO, great for linux.

Do you think Indiana school administrators read this website? Who are you talking to? I never said, "I definitely trust Linspire over Debian." I said that Linspire's website looks more professional than Debian's to someone who knows nothing about Linux, and I'd wager to say that most school administrators know either nothing or next to nothing about Linux. Arguing with me over which distros schools should choose is like arguing with your sibling over whether your parents should have children or not--already chosen, and not by you. As I've already stated, if a school administrator had asked me, "Which Linux should we go for?" I wouldn't have picked Linspire, but no school administrator asked anyone this question. Linspire has or probably will be chosen because it already took the initiative. There were no other contenders.

I wonder if you have actually installed and run the product?

Or are you taking someone else's uninformed say-so?

There is little difference between the actually words used in the SuSE installer and the words used in the Linspire installer.

In both cases, the person doing the installation is given the choice whether or not to create users.

As someone said earlier, one would hope that whoever is the admin doing the installation would know the need.

If the school is an all-Microsoft one currently - which is what one assumes - then they would need to be briefed.

In any case, one would assume that with turnkey projects like this, there would be some hands-on training - even if limited in scope - and probably a checklist provided for the school people doing the installation.

Please let not this thread become yet another root versus user flame war.

Anything which gets Linux up and running on the desktop in large numbers is a positive thing for open source.

As someone else mentioned, a ten-minute reinstallation is not hard for a broken installation.

One also could think about ghosted drives... or preloaded drives... and this would eliminate much of the problems.

Preinstalled drives obviously also need to have users set up on them, so honestly I don't see the fuss.

First of all, I'm defending Linspire. I think it's a great thing it's being put in schools. I'm also making the point that regardless of Linspire's general practices, no school would have all its users running as root.

Secondly, I have installed Linspire 5.0 and SuSE 9.1. I'm not basing this on hearsay. SuSE does actually have a separate section where you have to add a new user.

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerwork...s9/Image94.jpg

Linspire actually has a separate section called "advanced settings" that makes it sound as if you don't have to add a new user.

http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/293/36.gif

Nowhere on that screen does it say adding a user account is a good idea. I'm not spreading FUD about Linspire. I've installed it myself, and it defaults to root in a way that I've never seen another distro do. You can use Linspire, and I won't judge you for it, but I'm simply stating the facts.

I may have replied to the wrong person; if that's the case, please accept my apologies.

I too have installed both - SuSE 8, 9, 9.1 and 9.3 varying numbers of times.

Lindows 4 and 4.5, Linspire 4.5 and 5 equally a range of times.

Yes they both do do it slightly differently, but my opinion is that both make it obvious that while not mandatory to set user accounts, it is highly desirable.

This suggests that a general installation manual, readily available, would be a good idea, which explains how running as user in a single user machine will offer added security against accidental damage, and running as user in a multi-user machine (as in a school or other workplace) can prevent a deliberate act of one user to destroy the contents.

I think the whole conversation may have headed in the wrong direction because of this root versus user stuff; if the school admins don't know what they are doing, whatever they install will be flawed.

If they know what they are doing, then the installations will work succesfully and be a flagship for other school systems to follow suit.

The object is to put Linux on desktops imho, not to quibble obout what distro doesn't do what.

But my comments are not meant in offence, but constructively. Please don't take them the wrong way :D

I think these are two statements almost everyone in the Linux community can agree with. I know I do.