THIS SHOULD BE READ BY ANYONE THINKING OF USING LINDOWS!

The other day I received an email that said I could get a free copy of LindowsOS because I'm a registered user of Win4Lin. As a happy Xandros user, I thought this would be a great way to try out another Debian based distribution. Aside from the quick and simple install, there wasn't much about Lindows to like.

FIrst of all, after the installation I logged into a KDE screen plagued with desktop icons. With Xandros and Libranet there were 3 at initial startup. As well, in my panel there were icons that linked to commercial software -an antivirus program and parental software.

I decided not to judge the OS off these little Microsoft-minded mistakes. I liked the email program which had the look of Ximian but the simplicity of Mozilla mail. I don't think it was Mozilla though because my replies started at the top of the message screen rather at the bottom, so it might have been a tweaked version of KDE mail. This was really the only thing I liked. Once I started playing around with the software I discovered a list of things I hate about Lindows.

Nothing is free that is usually free with ALL distributions. In particular, if you want the codecs for playing DVDs you will need to spend $4.95. It's like this with most of the software except that the fees are a lot higher if you're not a registered member. Being a media junky, there wasn't a faster way than this to get me to dislike a distribution.

Lindows stands for everything Linux is not! By the time a person gets their computer configured and workable they will have already poured out the same amount of cash they'd have spent on Windows. Almost all of the software Lindows is selling is available freely on any distribution. If you're a newbie afraid of Linux configuration and want something that will get you going quickly and painlessly, this will not be the answer. I've moved my work over to Linux using Xandros and everyone there has found it very easy to use.

(other distros that are easy to use for the newbie are Libranet, Mandrake, and SuSE)

i agree if you look at another anti lindows post, i compare lindows to the pigs in animal farm... compromising values for an easier life....

And yet, on the other hand, Lindows makes no secret of the charges - in fact, they are well known. It is their business model.

Without trying to play Devil's Advocate (an inappropriate choice of words, maybe) had you gone to their website first, or searched the web, you would have known this. They have decided to charge everyone for their OS, not just corporate customers or people who wnat boxed sets.

Let's keep in mind that OSS does not mean "without charge", developers are free to charge if they wish.

I think you missed the point. Lindows isn't ready to go out of the box - which is quite the opposite of several claims made by the company (which are further emphasized during the install).

I don't think you're being the devil's advocate. Instead, you've made a good point that Lindows is an expensive Debian clone with every intent to cost a lot of money. The original message was aimed at newbies who are tempted by how easy Lindows claims to be.

If you install this operating system you WILL NOT be able to play DVDs unless you pay for the same files available freely for EVERY distro EXCEPT Lindows (libdvdcss). As well as has high cost, it also shares another Micro$oft trait and takes a big dump on your desktop with a ton of icons linking to more purchases you can make.

I received a free copy of Lindows. It couldn't do what I needed it to do unless I bought software for it, which explains why they're giving it away. Someone who pays for it then ends up paying several times over until they finally get the software they want. Whether or not Lindows keeps the money part a secret has little to do with whether or not it's a good Linux distro -it just isn't!

Anyone want copies of the world's worst Linux distribution -I'm giving them away for free but Lindows will charge you! Just email me.

I have no experience using it. But based on other peoples reviews I just canceled my download. Not to mention I think a name change would be a good idea. To me the Lindows name reminds me of the Simpsons Episode where they went to get a new TV and they had makes like Sarny. BTW whats the word on Lycoris. Wal Mart is selling PCs preinstalled with that for 199.99 also.

Lycoris is good! The packages are a little dated but it's a good distro for a newbie. Joseph Cheek, the man behind Lycoris, once walked me through setting up my DSL connection. He did this over the phone on a Saturday for about 40 minutes. That's back when Lycoris was Redmond Linux but I think it tells you something about the distro when you realize that the CTO will help a customer like this.

I don't think that was Xavier's point at all. I have read and reread the Lindows site several times, and at no point have I seen anything which suggests they are hiding their charges - in fact they are currently advertising at higher than they actually charge.

... or use apt-get. It does work, you know.

I've just double checked my desktop - file store, system info, CD-RW, DVD. The only one that could be seen as selling anything is the Internet Connection tool - which is other people's stuff, not Lindows stuff, and which you can easily ignore. In fact, as a newbie, I found it rather helpful.

It did for me. Perhaps you did it wrong?


Surely that's a matter of opinion? If it's good for what I need - and since I have a television I don't tend to watch DVDs on a computer monitor, so that's a non-issue to me - then it's a good distro for me. The fact that you don't like it does not make it a bad OS. I personally don't like MacOSX, but I accept that it does the job and a lot of people like it. I don't arrogantly presume that since I don't like it, it must by definition be bad.

The main thing that people in the great anti-Lindows discussions always miss is this:

The software is available elsewhere at no cost. True.
In order to install it on any other Lindows distro I have to learn how to do so, and I have to be prepared to fart about with apt-get and tarballs and so on.
MY TIME HAS A VALUE.

This last point is the bit everyone forgets. If you want to spend hours doing that, good for you. I hope you enjoy doing so and it brings you many hours of pleasure. I, however, just want to install PHP and mySQL and start developing websites. I have no interest whatsoever in how the operating system works per se, except insofar as it affects my work.

The reason I want a linux is because it works better with PHP, and mainly because it is much more stable. I have tried other distros - Mandrake and Suse - and on both occasions simply gave up. Mandrake refused to talk to my USB mouse, Suse was persona non grata with my printer. On both occasions I sought advice and got responses that whilst well intended were so complex that I just tried another distro.

Lindows ran first time, straight out of the box. It found my mouse and printer, and my soundcard which even WinXP didn't recognise. I can install software into it quickly and easily without having to care how it works. I have no complaints. If it takes me four hours in any month to install and maintain software, at my pay rate that's about £60 (UK). For about £3 a month I don't have to worry about it. I can spend those four hours earning money or, better yet, with my kids. I think £3 for an extra four hours with my kids is well worthwhile, don't you?

The trouble is, most Linux people are technical people in the OS sense. If you want the market to open its arms to Linux, you have to make it friendly to ordinary users. I'm afraid that on my experience, Lindows beats Mandrake and Suse hands down for that.

Take my mother (please ). She may be buying her first PC soon. She might even buy a Linux machine. Will a 52 year old woman who has never used a PC in her life want to learn all that command line stuff? No. Let's not forget the difference that removing the need for command line made to Microsoft. She wants to point there, click here, do a bit of typing and switch it off. Now, you can be high-handed and dismissive about that if you like, but it is people like that - the vast majority of the world - who turn hobby systems into mass-market globe-striding systems. Until linux appeals to them it will remain a tiny minority for desktop users.

Oh and as for spending as much as a Microsoft client - let's say you want an OS with nothing but an internet connection and Office. Windows XP retails at £163.32 link and Office XP at £199.00 link. Lindows cost me £13, and including the CNR fee, OpenOffice cost £3, totalling £16. The internet stuff is included in Lindows as in Windows. So Microsoft = £362.32, Lindows = £16. That's a saving of £346.32. Hardly comparable, really.

Nick

Nick-

Lindows has a starting price in the States of $49.95 for the download version and $59.95 for the boxed version. Copies of Windows XP can be purchased for $99 from Costco and various retailers. We're already half-way there. OpenOffice 1.1 is available as a free download as well as all the software I'd need to burn CDs, play DVDs, run a firewall, and all the other OpenSource software I'd need to get my new Windows XP system safe, secure, and usable. So I'm not sure where your figures come from but they do not reflect the reality of cost for Lindows or Microsoft.

(this part is just for example, my copy was free so only software costs apply)
Moving on... I now have a copy of Lindows which I downloaded for a cost of $49.95 and sure, I can connect to the net. However, since I have a DVD-Rom in my computer, I expect it to work. While this isn't anything you'd do yourself, there are millions of users who have a DVD-Rom and expect the OS to be able to use it. I pop in a copy of Monsters Inc so my kid can watch it in my room while me and my friends watch hockey on the TV but my kid comes back saying that the movie won't play. Turns out I have to install Xine for a cost of $4.95 (non-member price of $39.95), software specifically written to be freely available to Linux users.

Even better, as you have come up with magical prices for all of your Lindows stuff -similar to the magic-bullet theory in the JFK execution- here is the actual cost for Lindows software (via www.lindows.com):

Lindows Office: $39.95-59.95
Lindows Plus: $39.95-59.95
VirusSafe: $29.95-49.95
SurfSafe: $29.95-49.95

Lifetime Insider Status for as long as you remain a Click-N-Run Warehouse Member. Note: Does not include a Click-N-Run Warehouse Membership
$99

Always On-Call Support Includes:this
- 7/24/365 support availability
- Friendly, trained support personnel
- Toll-free "800" number**
- Unlimited incidents
$59.95-79.95

This does not include all of the fees for regular software using Click-N-Run.

My son, who turns 8 in May, uses Mandrake, Libranet, and Xandros well enough that he can install all the games he wants without any trouble. If your time was so valuable, it looks like you didn't use it wisely. You've just jumped to conclusions that other distros make installing software difficult or you tried out others like Slackware or Gentoo which clearly aren't for newbies.

You're right about why we have an anti-Lindows attitude. We can see that people are being ripped off. There are easier to use distributions that come fully functional the moment they're installed. Hey, it's your money though and you're free be wasteful with it if you like.

(0h, by the way, I never said Lindows was hiding prices. In fact it was Xavier who said they weren't. I made the point that I was given a free copy of Lindows which turned out to not be free because I had to pay for software to get it working. Also, your copy may not have taken a big dump on your screen with icons but mine sure did -15 to be exact. I'm wondering where your magically inexpensive copy of Lindows came from anyway because no one else is going to get it for that price.)

I admit I am benefitting from the collapse of the dollar here. Since Microsoft trade directly in the UK, their prices have not gone down with the dollar slump, whereas Lindows have. I got a $25 special a couple of weeks ago, which at the current dollar exchange rate is about £13.

The same applies to the CNR - $4.95 a month equates to about 10 minutes of my time, thanks partly to the exchange rate.

I am not claiming that Lindows is fantastic, or that everyone should use it. I just get very irritated with people (like you, I'm afraid) who suggest that simply because they personally don't like something, then it is by definition bad. Lindows does what it says it does does for the price it says it will charge - sometimes less. If you don't like it, don't use it. Fair enough. But why go round bitching about it? Why not spend your time offering example of how fantastic another flavour is, rather than bitching about Lindows.

There's nothing magic about the prices I quoted. I gave links to PC World, the largest software retailer in the UK, and the prices they offer. I can't give links to the special since it no longer exists. Also, you have distorted what I said. I said £3 including the CNR fee for OpenOffice, and you have responded with the price of LindowsOffice. So what if LindowsOffice is more expensive - I'm not using it, and they are offering OpenOffice and StarOffice as well as their own. StarOffice, it is worth noting, is significantly cheaper through CNR than it is to download yourself.

I agree, lots of people will want their DVD player to work, and yes the software is free elsewhere. There's nothing to stop you downloading that version and installing it via apt-get (and if necessary, Alien). Do that. Have a ball. Or use another flavour. Go for your life. You'd have to do it in any other flavour, so what's the problem with doing it with this one?

It seems to me that people just don't like the company much. Most of the complaints I have heard about Lindows have been about the business model and the politics of Michael Robertson rather than technical ones about LindowsOS itself.

And do you know what I think underlies a lot of this? I think that really, a lot of Linux people don't want 'ordinary users' spoiling their little world with requests for ease-of-use. After all, then they wouldn't be able to think they were superior to most computer users, would they?

I'm not necessarily a major Lindows fan, I just have a tendency to support the underdog. I might change flavours when I know a bit more. By the way, please don't patronise me with comments about how your 8 year old can do it. I didn't say I can't do it, I said I would rather spend the time doing something else.

Nick

That's exactly what I need to do. Not that I realized I was bitching, thought I was making an effort to let would-be Lindows users know that better distributions exist which are in fact easier to use. Xandros, which I have several times pointed out, is the best example:

Xandros Networks: a gui frontend to apt which allows you to browse and install all available apps as well as allows you to add sources for software which may not be available by default. Cost $0

Samba: Preinstalled and configured so all a user needs to do is enter in the Windows Networking group name. Cost $0

OpenOffice 1.1 Debian: Preinstalled, fully optimized Debian version! Cost $0

MPlayer: Perhaps the best DVD/media player for Linux. Comes with w32codec and libdvdcss for playing Windows Media Files and DVDs. Cost $0

However, Xandros isn't free. I spent $89 on it which licensed me to install it on as many computers as I wanted. This amount provided me with Win4Lin which allows me to run Windows within Linux and CrossOver Office which allows me to run software like Adobe PhotoShop. It also provided me with 90 days of support via email or phone for technical issues. As you can see, I'm not against a distro charging money for goods and services. I'm against a company charging for software which should already be installed for a computer to be fully functional.

I find it funny that you paid anything for OpenOffice when you can get it for free just by downloading it and installing it yourself using the Deb package, even as a Lindows user. By the way, you are aware that LindowsOffice is a tweaked version of StarOffice aren't you? Look at the butterfly on the box.

It doesn't matter if Lindows works! Of course it does, it's a Debian based distro. It's not any easier to use for a newbie than Mandrake, SuSE, Libranet, Lycoris, Fedora, etc. It doesn't provide better software, it provides the same software. It doesn't work out of the box unless you pay for that same software. It doesn't install better, work faster, or in any way outperform any Linux distribution out there. This is why Lindows is a bad distribution. Cost + Performance = Good/Bad?

As well, if the Linux community was so dead-set against newbies then why would a website like LinuxQuestions.org exist? Why would distros like Lycoris and Xandros, specifically aimed at easing transition from Windows to Linux, be around? Why is there a whole slew of websites and books written by longtime Linux users for newbies?

Sorry that you found this patronizing as it wasn't a comparison between my son's abilities and your own but more the point that there are distributions making Linux so simple a child could use it.

Perhaps now would be a good time to reflect upon your own feelings and ask yourself why you found this comment patronizing. Inner reflection is good for the soul. Anger leads to fear, fear leads to the darkside!

As long as your not being patronising.

I give up

Seeya

Nick

speaking of bad LinuxOSes, Fedora just sucked. Plain and simple. Sucked. Never could get the brand new modem I bought for it working. And printer configuration? forget it. Sorry to post it here, but just wanted to point out that there are worse OSes.

I can understand if you want the software at zero price, but it costs money to run a website to pay for ads. and so one. So I think it is fair that Lindows charges money for the system. They provide you with an offer you can resist. If you downloaded something, that required you to pay (for example mplayer) they can't stop you from sharing it with your neighbor or co worker, or friend or sellling it of a website.
To force copies to be given away for free was never the intention of the free software movment or the open source movment.

I don't seem to have any problems with Fedora Core 1 at all. It was a decent distro but i'm thinking on switching to gentoo soon. I had a feeling after reading the email letter sent by the site about the new forum that stuff like this would happen. Theres no need to bash a distro that you don't like. LindowsOS is designed for users that arn't as experienced or don't have enough time to learn the 250+ bash commands and how they work. The moderators should be closing these threads bashing lindows or else this forum will be useless cause none of the lindows users will want to post here. And not all the software costs money if you activate apt-get. The pay to download software does seem pretty stupid but the company needs to make money and thats also understandable. So is there really a good reason to bash an OS because you don't like it?