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Old 12-16-2020, 02:37 PM   #31
enorbet
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Why are some here arguing about hypothetical statistics instead of dealing with "where the rubber meets the road"? Some number of people are dying from and others are more or less permanently impaired due to Covid 19. That number, whatever it is, can be substantially reduced. So why wouldn't you?

Back in the 60s there was a successful movement to require motorcycle riders to wear a helmet. I saw this as an affront to personal liberty even though 100% of my mobility was on a motorcycle and I already chose to wear a really good helmet. The keyword seemed to be choice. Later the existence of such laws led, at least in part, to the adoption of helmets for kids on bicycles and skateboards. I have a hard time with lowest common denominator laws but I can't deny that the reinforcement led to far less serious head injury including death. I could be really cold and calculating and say that without those liberty reducing laws we would have culled out more idiots which is a good thing, but I can't help but also thinking that cold logic is deeply flawed as well as grossly unfair and rather silly.

The fact is from one POV that none of us, no matter who we are or where we live, is 100% free in that we give up many freedoms (driving on the "wrong" side of the road, shouting FIRE! in a crowded theater, etc) in order to enjoy the benefits of living in a civilization, and not being alone. From another POV we are ALL 100% free in that we can choose ANY action.... as long as we are willing to accept the consequences.

Choosing the vaccine seems a smart choice to me regardless of any minimal risks. The value WAY outweighs the cost. Medicine is not exactly Science. It is a practice but in general it keeps getting better all the time. I have personal experience that backs this up so when vaccine becomes available, for my own good, that of my family, and that of civilized society, I will gladly roll up my sleeve.

Last edited by enorbet; 12-16-2020 at 02:39 PM.
 
Old 12-16-2020, 02:48 PM   #32
Ser Olmy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Choosing the vaccine seems a smart choice to me regardless of any minimal risks. The value WAY outweighs the cost.
I hope you're right. But as of right now, we don't know the cost of the vaccine.
 
Old 12-16-2020, 04:49 PM   #33
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
Because you can only die once.
What about Buddhist cats? :P


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
(It's behind a paywall
My apologies - I didn't see any paywall or I wouldn't have used that link. (The downside to blocking extensions is not always knowing what others will see.)


Quote:
I think it makes more sense to stick with the numbers from The Census Bureau and The Bureau of National Statistics.
I think that was what I was looking for previously. It's a lot easier to locate the UK ONS figures than the US ones, so I summed the weekly data for "Total deaths, all ages" from individual spreadsheets for past few years which gave these figures:

Code:
Year	Deaths
2015	539,007
2016	524,474
2017	533,125
2018	539,340
2019	527,234
2020	567,222
Clearly 2020 has above average value - the value for 2020 is 34,586 above the 2015-2019 average of 532,636

However, the NYT article has an Excess Deaths value of 70,500 for the UK.

I'll assume this means you're correct about the NYT having a flawed methodology, but it still doesn't support the "all those people would have died anyway" angle.

Anyway, I agree with what enorbet posted - the statistics don't matter as much as the fact that we can do something about it.

 
Old 12-16-2020, 06:54 PM   #34
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Given the fact that Pfizer's requires stringent temperature controls during transport and storage before inoculation, I think I would go with Dolly's/Moderna given the human error factor and the title to these columnists' link says it well, for me -- when-the-time-comes-heres-how-to-ensure-your-covid-vaccine-has-been-properly-handled
 
Old 12-16-2020, 07:34 PM   #35
michaelk
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From what I have heard you do not have a choice.

All of vaccine packages have tracking devices that record temperature so hopefully once they get to their destination they should (I assume) be handled properly.
 
Old 12-17-2020, 06:56 AM   #36
hazel
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At least on this forum you can call some third party an idiot without getting "cancelled". Elsewhere I believe you have to say "a person with learning difficulties".
 
Old 12-17-2020, 08:53 AM   #37
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The new strain of Covid-19 has 17 mutations
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...tures-23177387

Hospitals full.
https://www.chron.com/news/article/R...h-15809731.php

California
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/...g-15809619.php

A few adverse reactions
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...ne/ar-BB1bYU3e
 
Old 12-17-2020, 09:25 AM   #38
igadoter
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Politicians and markets need something. Vaccination is that temporary solution. But it is definitely overestimated. Efficiency of vaccine will be far low than expected. But it is say next 6-month future. Seems infection spikes in 6-month periods. For flu it is 12-month period. So we need to wait. Effective treatment may come only from honest international collaboration and - of course - with those who created virus. It is vital to know presumptions made by scientists who created it - what did they plan to obtain? Goals. methods and so on. To fight virus effectively is needed open research group with free circulation of information. Pharmacological companies inevitable fail - they created to earn money - not to heal people. It is kind of thinking. In common time is ok - but now is not common time. Treat this as test for worldwide cooperation - are we capable? I am pessimist. I think that we will rather get to use to live all the time with this virus. Just as we live today with flu - essentially at this moment there is a lot of people who are extremely happy counting what they already earned thanks to covid. Say stupid masks. WHO suggested only to cover mouth and nose - not to wear any particular mask. So take a scarf cover your face and it is ok. No need to buy antyhing. So producing and selling masks is quite good business now. This raise question: why to fight covid if we can earn a lot of money on it?
 
Old 12-17-2020, 10:41 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
Clearly 2020 has above average value - the value for 2020 is 34,586 above the 2015-2019 average of 532,636
It does, but that data is for "total deaths" and does not list the causes, so a large dose of assumption is required. If you look at the March to May period in the stats for 2020, that's where the real spike occurred - i.e. while "lockdown" was in full effect.

Sage (Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies) and some university researchers actually predicted "collateral" deaths during this period, in relation to cancelled NHS operations, missed diagnosis and even some other factors such as domestic violence. I believe data for a sharp decrease in non-covid related hospital admissions supports this.

If we want news articles: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...e-say-experts/

Search and there are more...

When you factor this in you 34000 almost becomes null and void, or at least greatly reduced - and not easy to quantify.

Hence I don't see a simple increase in deaths as directly attributable to covid.

For some people needing urgent treatment "lockdown" has been akin to "stay at home and die".

Last edited by cynwulf; 12-17-2020 at 10:44 AM.
 
Old 12-17-2020, 11:54 AM   #40
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
It does, but that data is for "total deaths" and does not list the causes, so a large dose of assumption is required. If you look at the March to May period in the stats for 2020, that's where the real spike occurred - i.e. while "lockdown" was in full effect.
The point was we don't know if the recorded cause of death are over/under representing things (especially when comparing different health services), so to ignore the cause and see the difference, but you're right - without being able to quantify the deaths caused by lockdown itself, that approach is flawed too.

It's good if the virus is less deadly than it first appeared, but it's still a dangerous/unpleasant illness for some, frustrating and stressful the continued impact it is having, and - to return towards the original topic - vaccination seems to be the only way out which both reduces its effect and reassures people. Or some people anyway. :/

 
Old 12-17-2020, 01:49 PM   #41
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
At least on this forum you can call some third party an idiot without getting "cancelled". Elsewhere I believe you have to say "a person with learning difficulties".
Firstly, that's hilarious. Thank you for my morning grin Secondly and assuming I was at least one of the triggers having used the term even if in a general manner, I'd just like to say that I think it is qualified idiotic to stubbornly choose paths without taking precautions. Paul Simon wrote a great song. (many, actually) that posed the thought "Before you learn how to fly, learn to fall". I could add that in a vast majority of cases, it's prudent to don a helmet before you "hit the gas".

In the case of vaccines, Pfizer and all of Big Pharma, are simply corporations in business to make money. There might be other motivations in some CEOs and Officers, but that one is a given. Can you imagine the HUGE bad press, loss of trust (income) if there were large percentages of failures or bad reactions? At the very least stockholders would bail in droves just to be safe, especially in such a high visibility situation. It actually could be enough to be the end of such a corporation. So, aside from any humanitarian concerns, at the most base level, it seems to me clear how the odds are stacked, and while great rewards can come with great risk, generally it's wise to "bet with the house".
 
Old 12-19-2020, 10:48 AM   #42
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New Mexico tosses 75 vaccine doses over temperature issues --APnews.com
 
Old 12-19-2020, 11:27 AM   #43
michaelk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorC View Post
Which means the tracking system is working. One would expect a few glitches to outlying areas.
 
Old 12-20-2020, 12:31 PM   #44
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I don't care what anyone says and no one is going to change my mind: Thank God for President Trump and Operation Warp Speed.

If Hillary were in office over these past couple of years, she'd have been coddled so much that a push for vaccine development would be considered scaremongering.
 
Old 12-20-2020, 01:03 PM   #45
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Quote:
would be considered scaremongering.
Or sexism, misogyny, right wing extremism, male privilege, good ol boy network, hate speech, religious fanatics, glass ceiling, rednecks, those basket full of deplorables, anti government,... Great observation.

Don't despair, we about to go through that again, that is if Biden can keep from breaking any more feet while walking his dog, because that's normal.
 
  


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