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Old 05-24-2017, 05:44 AM   #16
Turbocapitalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserbeak View Post
Remember the modus operandi of Microsoft in the past has been:
In the present, too.

But about the continuation of scams, the spread of the marketing claim that "M$ ♥ Linux" is just another such scam. While clueless and or malevolent players sagely repeat that line, M$ has only been ramping up its attacks on FOSS and Linux and the GPL in particular. One big change is that M$ is mainly using proxies for that now:

For those in the US, where software and business models can be patented, let's look at one case involving software patents regarding M$ Azure: rather than joining the OIN, M$ instead works with its own pool of software patents until there is a fight. Then they sell off that patent with strings attached. The strings prevent the new owner for going after M$ itself or its renting tenants. That leaves the attacker not only looking for other targets but also looking to recoup the cost of the newly acquired patent. That means they head after those using GNU/Linux or similar FOSS outside of M$ control.

It's rather nasty.

The only rather clever part there is that M$ can offload its software patents before the public recognizes them as the stranded assets they are. Given the way the precedent-setting court cases have been going over the years, it is a wise move to leave someone else holding the bag. However, I don't admire M$ for it, it only shows what a mess they make for the rest of us.
 
Old 05-24-2017, 06:16 AM   #17
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Yep. Java is the best example.

1. Sun develops Java, with its write once run anywhere philosophy
2. M$FT sees this as a threat to its monopoly on the desktop
3. M$FT says it loves Java and wants to better integrate it with Windows
4. Everybody learns M$FT's version of Java, that only works on Windows
5. Eventually M$FT comes out with .NET as Java dies a slow death
6. Java is gone, mission accomplished.

At least that's the way the storyline was supposed to go. But antitrust lawsuits, etc. get in the way. Java still exists, but it was damaged greatly by M$FT's actions.

The only company that has successfully evaded M$FT is AAPL because if they went down, the government would certainly break up M$FT. They never saw the return of Steve Jobs and AAPL's purchase of NeXT and the wild success of Mac OS X, iPods and above all iPhones.
 
Old 06-22-2017, 02:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TempLinux View Post
secondly bringing SUSE, Ubuntu, and Fedora to the Windows Store and now the linux subsystem in the windows serer.

A: Microsoft <3 linux!

Microsoft may be lovey-dovey to linux but I still despite microsoft and everything about them.

We don't need your love M$!
Yea, I wouldnt get worked up about 'the linux subsystem in the windows server'. Even if it happens, it will be crippled to just running a few commands with none of the linux/gnu/bsd backend software.

As far as the SUSE/Ubuntu/Fedora in the apps store, its not 'love'- its an attempt to avoid people converting to linux. IMO microsoft is taking a 'better to let them run a linux inside windows than it is for them to nuke windows and install a linux distro' approach.

With old standard windows that was less likely to happen than with Windows 10 S.

Quote:
Windows 10 S: the locked-down Windows 10 that can only run apps from the Store.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017...-its-a-laptop/

Even though the rumour mill is insisting that Win 10 S is 'destined for low spec computers' is already appeared on some at least midrange hardware (like the surface laptop in the arstechnica link above).

Its connected to the new UWP (universal windows platform) where all software may only be installed via windows store.

Though it might not work out, IMO microsoft are moving to a new semi-apple-inspired vision- 'normal' computer users who will be running only programs from the apps store and 'power users' who for gamers will be anybody who wants to run multiple video cards (UWP has major issues with this), game mods or steam. And thats just the gamers, other power users could have just as many issues.
 
Old 06-22-2017, 03:47 PM   #19
sundialsvcs
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Quite honestly, I think that all of you are greatly over-estimating the power and the influence of Microsoft Corporation. (Perhaps because this is the first operating environment that you were exposed to?)

What Microsoft sells today is very similar to what IBM Corporation also sells today – a vertically integrated suite of technologies that are grounded in a proprietary operating system. (In IBM's case, several of them.) Corporations buy into it because it just happens to be a "soup to nuts" suite of products, all produced by one vendor, that just happens to work well. The "home computer" market is almost an afterthought for Microsoft, because there isn't a "revenue stream(!)" in it. You will probably buy your computer, take it home, and use it without paying another dime to Microsoft. The real game in this business is "IBM = Income By the Month!"

Believe it or not, Microsoft (corporate) customers have been asking for some time for software operating within the Microsoft Windows environment that is, shall we say, "a bit like a 'container'" in that it would allow certain Linux applications to function without having to dedicate a Linux machine. When a corporation has standardized its IT operations on Microsoft, but needs to run certain software that expects "Linux-ish-ness," they'd much prefer not to have to actually buy, deploy, and then maintain what is to them an "odd man out."

And as for going the other way – have you ever heard of "Wine?"

Windows isn't going anywhere. AS/400 isn't going anywhere. Linux isn't going anywhere. Unix (and OS/X) isn't going anywhere. Real-time operating systems (RTOS) aren't going anywhere. Get the picture?

Incidentally, "software patents" are not nearly as useful nor as important as you might think.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 01:19 AM   #20
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They no longer have the power they once did. And even if they did, they couldn't exercise it because the government would come down hard on them and finally break them up. But, at one time, they did wield such power.

Last edited by Laserbeak; 06-23-2017 at 01:21 AM.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 01:54 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserbeak View Post
And even if they did, they couldn't exercise it because the government would come down hard on them and finally break them up.
The possibility of that ended in 2001 when, under Bush II, the judge was removed from the antitrust case. Since then, there has not even been more than the empty threats of litigation. And anyway, given the glacial speed with which the courts move, M$ has no reason to change since the attempts at punishment would be so feeble and delayed as to not even be the least deterrent.

Also, they've completely done their internal workflow at least once to ensure that work records and internal communications are destroyed as a matter of course before they can be supoenaed. The last real case to almost get anywhere was Comes v Microsoft, also known as The Iowa Case. That got a lot of M$ records out into the open where they could be examined and they confirmed nearly everything bad you could say or even make up about that company of people.

Those records show that M$ sells to top executives not the actual monkeys that will deploy and futilely attempt to get the software running or keep it running. So about claims that their software just happens to work well, as Sundialsvcs puts it, that is only correct if one extends the phrase to "only works well enough to pass a sales demo" to some non-knoweldgeable C-level.

Their interest in claiming to support FOSS and GNU/Linux in particular is simply driven by an attempt to stay relevant in the new market. It's true that the desktop sales have not been as important as the desktop monopoly. It is the latter that has made them money, not the former. All of that is changing now and it would be interesting to see a proper analysis of new data or leaked internals.

However, their attacks against FOSS have not decreased or changed except that more is done by proxy now via partners.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 08:20 AM   #22
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserbeak View Post
They no longer have the power they once did. And even if they did, they couldn't exercise it because the government would come down hard on them and finally break them up. But, at one time, they did wield such power.
I frankly think that Microsoft wanted to hear a Federal Judge declare that they were a "monopoly." I think that the company's executives at that time wanted to believe that they controlled the market, even as the market itself – time and time and time again – proved that they didn't.

They utterly and completely lost the mobile-phone market, and they were forced to produce several entirely-different technologies and call all of them, "Windows.®" Their competitors built on open-source platforms (Linux®, Mach® ...) which could adapt to the explosion of non-x86 technologies that were out there, and left them far, far behind. Those technologies were nimble, and could be based on the work of many different [open] sources, while all of Microsoft's "it must be Invented Here™" strategies could not.

There is one market where Microsoft today does do very well: the corporate office. Here, they have developed a proprietary and vertically-integrated software structure from the ground up. They have put a lot of attention into how to make thousands of individual computers manageable. But, even there, there is competition, bearing alternative techniques that Microsoft can't match. (For instance, the concept of a "terminal" is actually coming back, driven by XOrg and the like and by the increasingly-popular notion of "cloud computing" which is more-or-less simply "timesharing, reborn.")

To me, the biggest problem that Microsoft has is that they didn't send Steve Ballmer (and Bill Gates) on to the comfortable land of retirement decades ago. In many ways they adopted the very worst aspects of "Ma Bell's" old playbook, and, worst of all, actually believed it. That judge's ruling merely told them what they wanted to hear. It was never, ever going to be implemented.

No one at Microsoft could ever counter the autocratic "other Steve" or "the Bill." Instead, they worshiped both of them as a saint – and listened to them, when they clearly shouldn't have.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-23-2017 at 08:23 AM.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 09:20 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TempLinux View Post

We don't need your love M$!

Gnome, Ubuntu,... aka SystemD and other modern stuffs are made for future full system control by Microsoft Who knows if one day Linux and Microsoft will not merge into a single system?

Using Linux by Microsoft is very good for Microsoft. Good plots.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 09:28 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
However, their attacks against FOSS have not decreased or changed except that more is done by proxy now via partners.
The MS of today is not so different to the MS of yesteryear. There are some who will scapegoat Balmer and Gates, but Gates set the company's direction from early days and others spent decades following that and building on it, the culture is ingrained and like most big business it's callous and cutthroat. The simple answer is "business is business" and while MS might be incompatible with the free software ethos, they're certainly atypical of big global corporations interested in profit and shareholders first and foremost.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 10:02 AM   #25
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeratul View Post
Gnome, Ubuntu,... aka SystemD and other modern stuffs are made for future full system control by Microsoft Who knows if one day Linux and Microsoft will not merge into a single system?

Using Linux by Microsoft is very good for Microsoft. Good plots.
Get a clue not an "opinion" or a "philosophy..." eg: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/?...iner=&flagged=

or: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ml#post5725141

Last edited by jamison20000e; 06-23-2017 at 10:04 AM.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 10:08 AM   #26
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https://blog.paranoidpenguin.net/201...ing-dlackware/
 
Old 06-23-2017, 10:19 AM   #27
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Linus Torvalds said "If Microsoft ever does applications for Linux It means I won." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz2vcClRTdY... You cant just take over Linux, people use it for a reason..

Last edited by justmy2cents; 06-23-2017 at 10:25 AM.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 10:35 AM   #28
Turbocapitalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justmy2cents View Post
Linus Torvalds said "If Microsoft ever does applications for Linux It means I won."
True. However, they are a long, long way from producing any software that runs on GNU/Linux. So far they've gotten FOSS developers to waste their own time and other resources getting FOSS operating systems to run on Windoze (including Azure). Mostly, they've been been getting FOSS developers to waste their own time and resources porting various applications, including Bash, over to Windoze. They've even tried to fork OpenSSH and make an alternative that runs on Windoze, but that seems to have stalled. The closest to running on GNU/Linux might be M$ own dusty, clumsy, slow, unstable database but even that only runs on Windoze through some kind of abstraction layer though the marketing misleads to imply that it runs natively. But it does not. As for any M$ applications actually running natively on Linux, that's not happening any time soon, if ever.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 10:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justmy2cents View Post
You cant just take over Linux, people use it for a reason..
If only that were true.
 
Old 06-23-2017, 01:01 PM   #30
Xeratul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
It is not good for Linux this MUST use on distro. But ok, there will be always FreeBSD or Linux distros that won't go for evil.
Quote:
Dlackware is not your average “GNOME for Slackware” project but instead aims to take the slack out of Slackware. What you get in return is the latest in “enterprise” technology. Dlackware delivers a fully functional GNOME 3.22 desktop with PAM, Wayland and systemd.
 
  


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