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Old 06-08-2003, 03:08 PM   #106
Yo-DUH_87
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The Linux learning curve is quite steap, I'll attest to that. Just navigating the GUI on the "newbie" distros is a learning experience. For someone that grew up in DOS and later Windows, Linux is fairly intimidating.

If you have to go with the easy approach, KDE is about as painless as they get, and it aviods being like windows.

I personaly prefer the Windows filesystem, as it makes better sense to me (hey, I've been working with it since I was like 2 or 3), but I'm trusting that Linux will grow on me over time...

Lindows, don't even mention that discrace. They are in violation of the GNU licence (yeah, they are allowed to charge a "small fee" for distribution of source code, not $199!!), and I'm just waiting for them to get nuked into oblivion by some smart lawyer (working either for Microsoft or a third party).
 
Old 06-08-2003, 03:16 PM   #107
hotrodowner
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couldn't every Linux guru in the world pull together, buy over 50% of Microsoft's stock, and then make the company release it's source code?
 
Old 06-08-2003, 03:22 PM   #108
Yo-DUH_87
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotrodowner
couldn't every Linux guru in the world pull together, buy over 50% of Microsoft's stock, and then make the company release it's source code?
Because, there are not enough Linux gurus...

I think M$'s estimated worth a few years ago was around $84 billion, but it has fallen a bit in recent years, I think. So you would need quite a few "gurus" to be able to pull that one off

Besides, if Windows was open source, a bunch of people would start using it, and not Linux
 
Old 06-08-2003, 03:46 PM   #109
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Linux needed to be like MS Windows because Microsoft held on monopoly on the desktop. Now that Linux has gained a foot hold, they can start developing more platform specific software to support their stable user base. I think that more development will come out of various countries, and not all just from the Americans, because the Americans will remain controlled by Microsoft.
 
Old 06-08-2003, 03:48 PM   #110
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One other point that I just have to make. I will really enjoy seeing platform specific software on Linux because Microsoft has been playing that dirty trick on everyone else for a long long time.
 
Old 06-08-2003, 06:22 PM   #111
hotrodowner
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Linux already comes with plateform specific software. And even if linux did use plateform specific software that wasn't on windows, they would just download the source code, integrate it, and then lie about it!!
 
Old 06-09-2003, 10:46 AM   #112
mikeyt_333
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Vlad,
I feel your frustration, and I very much agree with what you have been saying. However, my analogies are not just stupid analogies, there is a point. The windows world is one where people want things prepackaged, and they dont want to know how it works, they just want to know that it does. Now when joe schmoe is using linux, and he has a little experience in windows with adding some hardware, for example a sound card, and in windows all he has to do is swap the card, reboot and plop in the windows disk and it works, he will have a hell of a time figuring out what happened in linux when his sound doesnt work. And yes he will have to RTFM, but how does he know where the proper M is? And even with RTFM he has ended up spending days trying to figure this problem out (over 8 hours easy,) so now what does he do. He takes the Linux disk that his friend gave him, and tosses it, then puts in his window CD and puts windows back on. That is the problem currently. I had this debate with a guy who loves M$ yesterday, and I totally agree, the problem IS NOT that linux is difficult to learn, it is that the population is brainwashed into M$ bull$#*!. Back in the day of DOS, we all had to RTFM, same with when windows started.

So now, as a community, if we want more people to use linux (and I dont think it should be like windows in anyway, shape or form,) I think we need to think of this as a marketing issue. We've got a target audience, now how do we get their attention? That is the question, and that is the problem right now. How do we get them to RTFM?

I agree with what you are saying, but in your quick and seemingly angered responses, it feels as though you dont wnat more people to use linux. However, based on your firver for this topic, I would assume this is not the case, and you also want linux to grow like everybody else. Now don't you agree then that something needs to be done to convince people to RTFM?
 
Old 06-09-2003, 10:55 AM   #113
mattman
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*claps*

personally, i think that its the elitist attitude that keeps linux from growing as fast as it should. i mean, yeah, installing rpms is quite intuitive for me, i could do it in my sleep. to someone who has grown up with setup.exe, it isnt. they dont even know where to start. and we forget that. all the time.

we should be accessible teachers, not gurus sitting on the lofty mountain tops contemplating the state of the universe. RTFM doesnt help a person in the least if the have no idea what M they have to FR. any time that is the sole answer given, that is another potential loss to the linux community.
 
Old 06-09-2003, 11:25 AM   #114
fancypiper
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If I could have found the fm for Microsoft Windows 98 SE and been able to read it and get it to working correctly, I might have stuck with Windows.

I just wanted my computer to work. Windows doesn't, no matter how I configured it/downloaded tools that were supposed to fix/improve it.

I kept finding tons of info about Linux when searching for Windows fixes.

I tried it and it works once configured (much less time and effort expended than in my efforts with Windows), it just sits here and works.

Almost all of the software that I wanted and needed came as part of the installation.

I am just totally amazed at people that are satisfied with and actually purchase something that only partially works part of the time.

Windows is the hardest OS I have ever tried to use and be productive with in in my experience.

A good man is easy to find and info isn't much harder.
 
Old 06-09-2003, 11:34 AM   #115
hotrodowner
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While were on this topic, I think we need to figure out why we took the effort to RTFM's ourselves. I do want to be a computer engineer <computer science I believe is beyond me, sigh..>. But I also had no idea Linux existed. I forgot how I found out about Linux, but I do remember why I persude it. There was one unmistakeable fact that made me sit through the 500 re-installs it took for me to get the hang of it. Linux was free. I have nowhere near the budget it would take for me to install 4 copies of windows 98 and 1 copy of windows 2000 server at my house where I built all my computers from trash people gave me. It just wasn't possible. My house is of low income, and $600 for just the os's plus another $200 in office suites for school was <and still is> impossible. It was hard at first <I got corel linux as my first, that was a mistake>, but I now have a computer network I'm proud of. I also want to take this time to thank everyone at linuxquestions.org for taking your time to answer my questions, and I hope you still do.
 
Old 06-09-2003, 02:44 PM   #116
lokee
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Personally, I think telling someone to RTFM is *sometimes* useful...
I mean, imagine the guy keeps on asking stupid questions, it would be helpful to tell him to: RTFM and read this (or something like that).

Patiently giving all the answers would be spoonfeeding, and he might imagine that it's normal.
So he'll keep on asking...

RTFM may not be fun, but we must ALL do it once in a while, plus it makes us better users(more 'real' knowledge).
RTFM'll help keep a smart community.

Last edited by lokee; 06-09-2003 at 02:49 PM.
 
Old 06-09-2003, 02:46 PM   #117
mattman
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yeah, thats true, i mean, "teach a man to fish" and all that. but RTFM is nowhere near as helpful as "try checking out this website" or "do some reasearch on whatever"
 
Old 06-09-2003, 04:45 PM   #118
hotrodowner
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Quote:
but RTFM is nowhere near as helpful as "try checking out this website" or "do some reasearch on whatever"
yes, but we dont just say "RTFM" and then leave. Like if someone was wanting to know how to make linux a router, you might say, "RTFM on the iptables firewall"or "try searching google on linux routers". We usually at least help themin the right direction. We wouldn't want someone to RTFM on ipchains, now would we?
 
Old 06-09-2003, 05:28 PM   #119
Vlad_M
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeyt_333
Vlad,
I feel your frustration, and I very much agree with what you have been saying. However, my analogies are not just stupid analogies, there is a point. The windows world is one where people want things prepackaged, and they dont want to know how it works, they just want to know that it does. Now when joe schmoe is using linux, and he has a little experience in windows with adding some hardware, for example a sound card, and in windows all he has to do is swap the card, reboot and plop in the windows disk and it works, he will have a hell of a time figuring out what happened in linux when his sound doesnt work.
I am probably being a bastard here now and nitpicking, but I don't even know what soundcard is in my box right now. RH 8.0 just picked it up, installed all the modules and loads them at startup. So, maybe some other things would cause some problems, but most new distros seem to do well with soundcards. Except that crap called AC97 or whatever (which is a glorified pc beeper trying to be a soundcard).

Quote:

So now, as a community, if we want more people to use linux (and I dont think it should be like windows in anyway, shape or form,) I think we need to think of this as a marketing issue. We've got a target audience, now how do we get their attention? That is the question, and that is the problem right now. How do we get them to RTFM?

I agree with what you are saying, but in your quick and seemingly angered responses, it feels as though you dont wnat more people to use linux. However, based on your firver for this topic, I would assume this is not the case, and you also want linux to grow like everybody else. Now don't you agree then that something needs to be done to convince people to RTFM?
I am willing to listen to your suggestions on how to get people to RTFM. As I said, I am doing my bit by educating a whole generation of students that Linux can be as easy as windows, by nurturing a culture of searching through the web and RTMing (can't use the F in class ). I really don't know how we can get people who don't think that RTFMing is worthwile to get to learn to use Linux. Like I said, I don't believe that such people know how to use windows either. I have had supposed windows pros (read: have been using it since they started using the computer) get amazed when I open a new window in explorer by holding down shift and clicking, I sh1t you not.

You see, it is that kind of users that I could not give two fscks about. But, in my opinion, whcih I feel counts for something, since I am involved and I know something about the industry, such users are hardly a driving influence in OS design. Yes, there is a lot of them, but they use the OS in such a superficial manner that even win95 is good enough for them. Heh, for them that abomination prolly doesn't even crash that often, since they use maybe 2% of the resources of their machine.

So, as much as I would love everyone to start using linux, I owuld not like linux to change to accomodate idiots, rather I would like the idiots to change to accomodate changig to a really good OS. And that doesn't mean that they have to become computer geeks (damn I hate that word, its such a meaningless blanket term - today geek is someone who knows something that you don't), just that they have to acquire some knowledge of what is this computer device all about. Which everyone should have in this day and age, when everything we do is somehow related to computers.

Quote:
Originally posted by lokee
RTFM may not be fun, but we must ALL do it once in a while, plus it makes us better users(more 'real' knowledge).
RTFM'll help keep a smart community.
Amen.
 
Old 06-09-2003, 05:36 PM   #120
fancypiper
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Can anyone point the way for me to the manual(s) for Windows 98SE?
 
  


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