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Old 06-06-2003, 09:05 PM   #91
Pcghost
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Dos was alright, except for 6.20 which was really buggy. Linux on the command line is far superior, but that is just my opinion. Browny I totally agree (as one who was brainwashed by the shit) . Truely how much of an improvement has there been since win 95? While Dos had its flaws, it was a hell of alot more stable than Windows 95, 98, ME, XP..
 
Old 06-06-2003, 11:33 PM   #92
carrja99
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XP seems to be pretty stable, which amazed me. I havent had it crash on me yet, which again, amazes me, as every windows since 95 has crashed on me when I do somethin small, like click on the start button.
 
Old 06-07-2003, 11:23 AM   #93
Pcghost
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Xp is far superior to the 9x series that is for sure, but other than slightly better gaming compatibility and some fluff, what does it have that 2k didn't have? 2k was as stable (at least) and it allowed for domain based networking. I know I know, I could've bought Xp Pro, but that marketing scheme (read: scam) was very crooked and I ended up with xp home bundled with my laptop (Now RH 9) anyway.

The whole activation thing was the last straw for me. I have had to re-activate Windows Xp 3 times in the last year (hardware changes and reinstall) and after having to call MS and ask their permission to use my new motherboard, I was fed up. Long story short, I checked out Linux and never (read NEVER) looked back..

Last edited by Pcghost; 06-07-2003 at 11:24 AM.
 
Old 06-07-2003, 12:08 PM   #94
titanium_geek
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Just remember this guys... as long as there are idiots in this world, the rest of us geek people have a job. If that means helping them get linux set up, so be it. Then they can just point and click.

titanium_geek
 
Old 06-07-2003, 02:27 PM   #95
mikeyt_333
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Wholly crap this is a long forum, was gonna read it all but gave up on page 6!

This debate is so old, and I think it is old and unending because there is a lack of communication.

A few questions:

1. As linux users, would we like linux to remain or will we accept its dissapearance?

The answer is obvious, we want it to stay, for whatever reason we love linux and thus should do what is needed to propel it into the future. I for one do not have a problem with linux being the major OS in the future, it is a wonderful thing with lots to offer.

2. If we truly want linux to remain and grow, what must we do?

Well, this oneis a little more complicated. I don't think we should change linux to be like windows, or vice versa, but I think something does have to be done. I posted a thread resently refering to how much M$ feels linux is a threat, and is inadvertantly declaring war on linux. Frankly, if we maintain the attitude that linux is for comp gurus, and people should be willing to read the manual, we are going to lose the fight, and I guarantee it. At the moment, yes it would be great if all of a sudden people wanted to RTFM, but if that were the case too much time would be wasted learning to use linux instead of appreciating the lack of reboots. In the beginning people didn't have a choice but to RTFM or work their way through the problems of an OS, now they don't have to do that, they have winblow$. And now it is a matter of fight strategy, you can be aggresive and refuse to accept the fact that M$ is a goliath and say "people are stoopid and need to learn." Or you can understand that most people enjoy using the computer because it links them to family all accross the world, and they want to smile when they see pics of their family in their email, and when they want to use their computer they don't have to re-learn everything about it. Those users who just enjoy using their computers have that right, and it is not our job or right to demand that the only way they can use linux is to RTFM! If tyhe linux businesses and those propelling it remain with this attitude, they are going to lose! There is no discussing this, if the linux community is not willing to help others learn linux and find ways to push linux more into mainstream, linux will die, and those who are too bigoted and biased to see that a linux which operates in a way to allow some grandmother ease of use, is good thing, you are the downfall of linux. This world opperates on popularity and the all mighty $, although that sucks, we must learn to work with the system to bring it down!

So, if you think users should have to RTFM and have to "use their brains," or they are stupid for wanting an easy machine to use, then I ask you this:

Can you dismantle your car and put it back together in working order? If you can't, perhaps you should learn to do that first, and then you will be allowed to drive. If you are not willing to learn all about your car and the way it works, you are not allowed to drive, until you RTFM!

Please, lets skip the bigotry and figure out what it will take to propel linux. Linux can work for the common user, and still be just as fun for us techies!!!!!!!

Mike.
 
Old 06-07-2003, 04:52 PM   #96
Pcghost
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LOL!. I agree with some of it but I think you are being a bit cynical. People teach people how to use an OS. MS hasn't released a manual on their operating systems in years. This is one area I must say Linux has them beat. If anyone wants to stop the lazy attitude that "if they have to learn it it's shit", then all they have to do is register in a Linux forum and LEARN LINUX. Microsoft has taken 90% of the user customization out of their operating system to cater to the people out there who want their computer to be a toaster. If that is what is needed to get Linux to the "average user" then screw them, Linux is perfect for me the way it is. If someone wants to learn, I will help them any way I can.

And in answer to your other question.

Quote:
Can you dismantle your car and put it back together in working order? If you can't, perhaps you should learn to do that first, and then you will be allowed to drive. If you are not willing to learn all about your car and the way it works, you are not allowed to drive, until you RTFM!
I have rebuilt my truck (engine, axels, driveline, etc) from the ground up. About to do another motor swap on it this summer.
I would love it if knowing how to fix a flat was on the driving exam, because I firmly believe 80% of the people on the road have no business driving...

end of rant..
 
Old 06-07-2003, 08:12 PM   #97
hotrodowner
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you know what? I've recently been posting questions about things I have no way about learning but here. There is nobody in my community who can show me, and the linux manuels dont clarify. I have asked what I need to do to make it so linux could be my pop server, but I've only got the standerd "RTFM" responce, any of you people who think people who say you would help people with there linux questions want to explain my lack of assistance from the people who know the answers? <forgive my spelling, I only have time for a quick post>
 
Old 06-07-2003, 09:08 PM   #98
Vlad_M
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man I was going to keep quiet in this thread, cos I think I already managed to offend some people, but these silly analogies and metaphores are really more than I can take.

What is this cr@p about dismantling a car? Do you really equate learning how to *USE* linux with learning how to dismantle a car? If you do, you are sorely misguided and ignorant.

I know how to do quite a few things in linux, and how to get *linux* to do quite a few things for me. Do I know where I would even *start* to dismantle linux (read: change something in the code) - HELL NO!!!

The two have nothing to do with each other. All this bullsh1t about having to be a "geek" to use linux is just an urban legend, like Goebells said, repeat a lie enough times and it will actually become the truth. There is nothing more difficult about learning how to use linux, than learning how to use windows. Just look at all the windows for dummies books on the shelves - and they are selling like hot cakes. So in other words, you WILL RTFM to find out how to do something in Windows, and you refuse to do it for linux? Why?

I am quite a savvy windows user too, and all that I learnt did not magically meterialise in my head, I read and studied and RTFM'd and googled to know all I know about it now. If you haven't, I guarantee that you wouldn't know the difference between a RH 9 install and a Win XP install, they would all do the same thing for you - i.e. type your letters and fetch your email (supposing you know how to use an email client?)

if you never bothered to RTFM, my friend, you know jack sh1t about windows too....I am sorry to tell you that. Just because you can install a program and launch an app, doesn't mean that you have mastered an OS. Yes, sure, you can run it without really knowing what is going on, but then you are just getting much less out of your computer than you could. To use your stupid car analogy, you are putting 93 octane fuel in your car, when you could be getting 97 for the same price (and get much more performance).

And that (RTFM) goes for windows and linux alike.
 
Old 06-08-2003, 12:14 AM   #99
lokee
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I totally agree with Vlad, he made a valid point in my opinion.
 
Old 06-08-2003, 12:42 AM   #100
ricdave
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Great post mikey----Grow or die, albeit the direction of growth may not be to everyones liking, nonetheless grow we must.
 
Old 06-08-2003, 12:55 AM   #101
Muddy
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Quote:
Originally posted by arun79
Let me word the question better for your convenience kater, "Why was Unix used as the reference for Open Source Development and not DOS???"
I'm sorry you have been misinformed again, Linus did not use Unix as a base to write Linux. He used minix.


For a little history lesson here is one of his origional posts to the Minix news group.

From: torvalds@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds)
Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
Subject: What would you like to see most in minix?
Summary: small poll for my new operating system
Message-ID: <1991Aug25.205708.9541@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Date: 25 Aug 91 20:57:08 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

Hello everybody out there using minix -
I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones. This has been brewing
since april, and is starting to get ready. I'd like any feedback on
things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it somewhat
(same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons)
among other things).
I've currently ported bash(1.08) and gcc(1.40), and things seem to work.
This implies that I'll get something practical within a few months, and
I'd like to know what features most people would want. Any suggestions
are welcome, but I won't promise I'll implement them :-)
Linus (torvalds@kruuna.helsinki.fi)
PS. Yes - it's free of any minix code, and it has a multi-threaded fs.
It is NOT protable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never
will support anything other than AT-harddisks, as that's all I have :-(.

Last edited by Muddy; 06-08-2003 at 12:57 AM.
 
Old 06-08-2003, 05:19 AM   #102
Vlad_M
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haha I like that post...even Linus had NO idea how huge it is going to get.

I like where he says "its not going to be big and professional like GNU" - hell, when you say GNU today, people think Linux!!!
 
Old 06-08-2003, 06:15 AM   #103
hotrodowner
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um, I just went through this huge explaination about why * nix is better than windows and when I went to post it, my login expired. I'm tired of borthering with it, so there. Just understand then *nix is more powerful then windows. *nix can do everything windows can, windows cann't match *nix's stablity, speed, and capabilities. And that easier to use stuff is crap, *nix is actually easier than windows. It's just Micro$oft brainwashed everyone into thinking that windows is the only thing, therefore you dont see any kids learning it in school cause the teachers only know about windows. There are only two ways to make people use Linux

1) Put it in the news with a big story like "millions of windows desktops and servers have crashed today when a virus spread through the internet and took advantage of some vulnerability in Windows!! Oh by the way, were still working cause we use Linux...." <Not recommending someone do that though, it could be pretty bad.>

2) Have the teachers teach it in school, then they will learn!! People arn't going to change there ways after they grew up only knowing one way. People need to be shown at a young age. For example, most all people I help with computer problems over here think Windows is a part of the computer, I tried to teach them what Linux is, but they think it's a program than make windows more stable and secure. People only know that Windows comes with the computer, and you can add programs to it, they dont understand that Windows can be REPLACED. They dont even know what an OS is!!

(ps. I did RTFM, but I still didn't understand it, and people are only telling me to read it again.)

Last edited by hotrodowner; 06-08-2003 at 06:24 AM.
 
Old 06-08-2003, 08:03 AM   #104
Vlad_M
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Just to address your point 2) - I am a schoolteacher and I am doing just that - the syllabus stipulates that for their final exams students must have a certain degree of profficiency working with an OS (doesn't stipulate which OS) and a certain level of expertise with an Office suite (also not stipulated which).

So my students are using Red Hat (hehe there's a personal bias right there, but hey, I gotta corrupt their minds somehow!) and OpenOffice. They have never told me that using linux is hard (and I insist on them using bash instead of nautilus, for e.g.) and I always get a positive response when they see how much better their cr@ppy machines at school (P3s) are running then the powerhouses that they have at home which came preloaded with XP.

So many of my students have converted their machines to Linux, and they have even said that their parents did not find it any more difficult to do their daily tasks (office, net, email, mp3,dvd) on linux than it was on windows.

p.s. did you actually start a thread about your problem? I don't know much about sendmail (which I know you'll have to set up to make a POP server), but i am sure that there are people here that do.
 
Old 06-08-2003, 08:07 AM   #105
hotrodowner
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http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...threadid=62581
 
  


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