Most of the countries in the Middle East and Africa were not/are not "natural" as they were either carved up/created after WWI and WWII or prior to that from colonialism. What we now call the Middle East was the Ottoman Empire, prior to that you had Persia and Arabia. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Israel etc... were created after with installed regimes that were controlled by outside forces not by the people in the countries.

Moving forward how about, the USA and Europe stop playing map maker and king maker and focus on their own countries within their own borders etc... Without the US trying to force/dictate/control other countries via the guise of Democracy which is just a modern term for colonial control and empire expansion most of the worlds problems would resolve on their own naturally.

Look at the mess of Laos and Cambodia, in the name of Democracy those two countries are still covered with US mines and unexploded ordinance. Its a tragedy that Americans do not demand that type of change and that the world does not say no more.

I think it would be accepted by most, it's not the people, it's the controlled governments and corporate interests preventing it.

Orthodox Jews were also protesting against what Israel is doing and were in support of Palestine.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-war-Gaza.html

Last time there were elections in Gaza, they elected Hamas. And Hamas has not allowed elections since then. I assume they would murder any serious opposition. So, uh, I don't see how democracy solves this.

You can have a true democracy only after the problem is solved I guess.

Did they, though? https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-election.html

From the article you linked:

Sounds like they won the most votes, so yes. If you want to change the system until the party you don't like is kept out of power, even though it gets the most votes, how is that democracy?

Hamas was elected because it promised the Palestinians to take back their homes and lands and return the exiles to their country.Unlike Fatah, which was satisfied with the 1967 borders, Hamas promised the Palestinians a country from the river to the sea.
I am sure that if a free election is held for people who live freely in their country, radical groups like Hamas will not be elected.

I should probably just let this thread go, but I'm curious how you reconcile these statements. Israel currently has free elections, and they have elected Likud for many years.

Jordan Peterson was on Bill Maher's show and stated that from what he knew and had discussed with political researchers Hamas's plan was to effect an attack that was so outrageous that Israel would have to react so strongly the fallout would radicalize the Muslim World, and turn world opinion against Israel and so far it has been a qualified success.

Today I read that Hamas blocked Israeli shipments of fuel to Gaza Hospitals, so apparently they want to pin even more civilian bodies on Israel, at ;least to anyone who will buy the denial propaganda. What utter and unnecessary madness. Politics and Religion - unholy bedfellows if there ever was a pair that qualifies.

Jordan Peterson is somewhat of a psychologist, not a political analyst. He has political opinions, just as he has opinions on other things, such as political correctness, transgender people, feminism and so on. You should also be aware, if you are not already of his extreme bias, when it comes to the Palestine/Israel situation:
A tweet sent to Netanyahu in early October)

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other...pm/ar-AA1jbfw3

You should make it clear that you read a claim by Netanyahu.

_blackhole_ - Let's be clear, Petersen said that about Hamas, not Palestinians. There is a difference. The event of Hamas blocking fuel shipments and even stealing fuel is not merely an empty claim. There are videos. That's not as yet proof but it is strong evidence. Additionally, it should be obvious by the nature of the attack that Hamas is not stupid about ruthless strategy, nor are they apparently plagued with lack of discipline evidenced by the complete surprise of an attack that wasn't possibly planned in just a day or two.

Let's not mince words here. Israel is a democracy that values human rights. Hamas is an extremist religious autocracy that wants the world to be 100% Islam even if it means they happily die murdering and executing infidels, infidels being anyone who doesn't agree with them and toe the Sharia line, including moderate Muslims.

The Hamas battle plan was not to attempt to win anything that much is clear. There was no tactical advantage to that part of the plan. Sadly it is proving fatal for their Gaza civilians as well. Their plan seems to have been to incite the Israeli state so much that some Arab countries would feel free to join. I can't see any other reason to start a plan with murder and kidnapping of civilians.
I know one country seems to get blamed but this plan could have come from anyone. Pretty basic way of attempting to start a larger war.

I know they could return the kidnapped people. I was kind of shocked by the report of what happened to that one young German lady.

IF we are not going to mince words we should stop mincing words.
Hamas are terrorist murderers and deserve no mercy. They still deserve due process and human rights. Most Palestinians are not Hamas members, and the majority did not vote for Hamas to govern Gaza.
Israel IS a Democracy, but the current government does not believe in Democracy or human rights. They have disregarded the wishes of the voting citizens and attacked the Democratic institutions of their own country. They have ALWAYS supported violating the rights of Arab citizens of Gaza and the West Bank. They are ignoring the lives and rights of the innocent in both areas, and any living near the border in Jordan. The kill the innocent along with combatants, and if they cannot find combatants they will just kill the innocent. They are now war criminals.

I am not taking a side in this, other than the side of the innocent victims. At this point if you take the side of Israel or Hamas you are selecting one terrorist over another, and they are equally bad.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not a long document. You should read it.

You should then take your pick of Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Médecins Sans Frontières, World Health Organization, or any other similar organization you trust - and read their accounts on what has been done by the Israeli government.

Unfortunately we are not discussing ideal, black box, situations here. We are discussing humans and human institutions involved in conflict and none in history have utterly clean slates. It makes a kind of sense, for example, that Centrist Germans note that the most radical right supporters live in and around the Dresden area, where it can be argued the US and the UK were technically guilty of a war crime if we use the same standards by which Israel is now widely being judged. The situation was very similar in that the means for carrying on the war was intermingled with the civilian population who became collateral damage.

Collateral damage is a nebulous term and can be abused but Desden and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, just like the more conventional (but infinitely better guided) bombardment of Gaza is all collateral damage. As horrible and regrettable as those incidents are the first 2 did shorten the war considerably and avoided greater body counts on both sides. It remains to be seen if the Gaza bombing and collateral damage will shorten the conflict and reduce losses on both sides, but make no mistake, when at war, military advisors must focus on winning and saving lives on their side, especially when the enemy side began the violence. There is a difference between having to accept civilian casualties when combatants hide in civilian areas by design and seeking out by overt planning to kill civilians in order to provoke an escalation.