LinuxQuestions.org
Latest LQ Deal: Latest LQ Deals
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 06-27-2020, 07:44 AM   #1
grumpyskeptic
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2016
Posts: 307

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Why is Russia still behaving like a enemy, even after the fall of communism?


Would it not be better for the Russian economy for them to be another friendly European country like France or Germany?

Yet instead it has chosen the role of an enemy, displaying a lot of military hardware and apparently assassinating former spies. Isn't this stance detrimental to Russia's interests?

Edit: I meant to type "Why is Russia still behaving like an enemy..."

Last edited by grumpyskeptic; 06-27-2020 at 12:06 PM.
 
Old 06-27-2020, 08:42 AM   #2
teckk
Senior Member
 
Registered: Oct 2004
Distribution: FreeBSD Arch
Posts: 2,907

Rep: Reputation: 793Reputation: 793Reputation: 793Reputation: 793Reputation: 793Reputation: 793Reputation: 793
I think that Russia has its own culture and mentality. They simply have a different way of thinking than the west does. I kind of like them. A little more earthy and real than the west. Some of the tougher men I've ever known were Russians. Part of their culture, hard drinking, hard fighting.

I have watched a few vids lately about the Romanov period. I think that they still have fears that the west is trying to conquer them. That is what Ukraine was all about. I think that they think they need a buffer between us and them.

Putin is/was also a KGB agent, I think that he still has that mentality. Hard for the westerners to understand the Soviets/Russians mind.

I think that they also see the west as an unchecked potential enemy that needs checked. And (shhhh) I think that maybe it does.

Quote:
Would it not be better for the Russian economy for them to be another friendly European country like France or Germany?
They don't want to be western puppet.
 
Old 06-27-2020, 08:50 AM   #3
hazel
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Harrow, UK
Distribution: LFS, AntiX, Slackware, OpenBSD
Posts: 4,375
Blog Entries: 11

Rep: Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471
Russia has always regarded itself as the only truly Christian and civilised country. They have a deep hereditary distrust of the West. You need to remember that the Tsars took their title after the fall of Constantinople, whose heirs they believed themselves to be, and they have always blamed the earlier Western sack of Constantinople for the final fall of the city to Islam.

Communism hardly altered Russian foreign policy at all, and the fall of communism has not done so either.
 
Old 06-28-2020, 05:16 AM   #4
ondoho
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,616
Blog Entries: 9

Rep: Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094Reputation: 4094
Quote:
Why is Russia still behaving like a enemy, even after the fall of communism?
  1. The question is loaded. You are presuming that everybody agrees that Russia does behave "like an enemy", at all times.
  2. "fall of communism"? I'm sure many communists around the world, and China, would disagree. Let's be precise and call it "fall of the Eastern Bloc" or "Fall of the Soviet Union" or, more on topic, "the end of the cold war".
  3. Many countries, some of which large and important, "still behave like an enemy" even after the end of the cold war. Not only Russia.

All in all, a black-and-white question typical for the cold war era and certain countries whose politics strive to keep up a simple good guy / bad guy narrative even today.

Last edited by ondoho; 06-28-2020 at 05:20 AM.
 
Old 06-28-2020, 05:35 AM   #5
Roken
Member
 
Registered: Oct 2011
Location: Warrington, UK
Distribution: Arch local, Debian on VPS, several RPIs.
Posts: 288
Blog Entries: 1

Rep: Reputation: 53
I have no problems with Russia. They leave me alone, and I leave them alone.
 
Old 06-28-2020, 06:25 AM   #6
273
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2011
Location: UK
Distribution: Debian Sid AMD64, Raspbian Wheezy, various VMs
Posts: 7,570

Rep: Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349Reputation: 2349
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckk View Post
I think that Russia has its own culture and mentality. They simply have a different way of thinking than the west does. I kind of like them. A little more earthy and real than the west. Some of the tougher men I've ever known were Russians. Part of their culture, hard drinking, hard fighting.
I, too, have always admired the Russian people. After the fall of the Berlin Wall I had hope that Russia would become a new, different, super power democracy. However, first they allowed their infrastructure to be stolen by a few, lucky businessmen then, because:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Russia has always regarded itself as the only truly Christian and civilised country.
They decided to be anti-sexual freedom. And, suddenly, just another good old US of A with only slightly shifted viewpoint.
Russia could have been such a good example to the world, having capitalism but with some socialist sensibilities like the Scandinavian countries, for example. But, no, the country became a kleptocracy then a theocracy and no better than the US that they distrust so much.
It's sad to me, and the reason I am typing this not simply ignoring the idea, because, like the US, I have respect fro the people of the country but cannot, for example, visit due to those people being represented by an unelected, moronic government.
It is sad we have come so far but, still, democracies are few and far between and basic freedoms don't exist in huge parts of the world.
 
Old 06-28-2020, 07:47 AM   #7
agillator
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2016
Distribution: Mint 19.1
Posts: 387

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Note who still controls Russia. A duck by any other name is still a duck (sorry, Shakespeare). And as someone else noted Russia has a fear of being attacked and conquered - goes way back many hundreds of years, I believe. As an example some years ago (20 or so, I think) when there was a major earthquake it was obvious she needed help and the whole world pitched in - Israel with body sniffing dogs to find survivors, US with food, blankets, etc., and many others. At first Russia would not allow planes to enter their airspace, finally they were overwhelmed and couldn't keep them out. I remember thinking in amazement at the time when they basically abandoned control of their airspace open that planes from the US could have been B52s, not cargo planes, but of course they weren't. Then I had another surprise and I think this one was even more important. When everything settled down I remember seeing the Russian ambassador in a TV interview literally in tears thanking the US and others and saying the response was far beyond anything they could imagine or understand. That simply pointed out how deeply the fear of invasion goes. As someone else pointed out the Soviet Block in the USSR days was a buffer against invasion more than an empire. Understanding this makes many of their actions today understandable but no less dangerous. It takes many generations to get over something like that.
 
Old 06-28-2020, 10:38 AM   #8
DavidMcCann
LQ Veteran
 
Registered: Jul 2006
Location: London
Distribution: PCLinuxOS, Xubuntu
Posts: 5,560

Rep: Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979
The fear goes back to the 13th century Mongol invasion, which almost destroyed urban life, and the subsequent "Tartar Yoke" lasted until the 15th century — indeed, they only reached the Black Sea at the end of the 18th century!
 
Old 06-28-2020, 11:57 AM   #9
hazel
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Harrow, UK
Distribution: LFS, AntiX, Slackware, OpenBSD
Posts: 4,375
Blog Entries: 11

Rep: Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471Reputation: 2471
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
The fear goes back to the 13th century Mongol invasion, which almost destroyed urban life, and the subsequent "Tartar Yoke" lasted until the 15th century.
Interestingly, Trotsky proposed a very similar theory. Russia, trapped between the tartars and the more developed societies to the west, had to hang together or they would all have hanged separately! Hence tsarist autocracy. In the West, the power of kings was balanced by the Church and provincial ducal rulers; this provided space for cities to flourish. In Russia, the Church was slavishly subservient to the tsar and the boyars (aristocrats) were his officials. Cities were the tsar's fortresses, not centres of production, so Russia never developed a proper bourgeousie and could never have the kind of bourgeois revolution that would have led to parliamentary democracy.

Last edited by hazel; 06-28-2020 at 12:00 PM.
 
Old 06-28-2020, 12:08 PM   #10
agillator
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2016
Distribution: Mint 19.1
Posts: 387

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Thank you, David. One other thing to remember about Russia that we often forget: they have no experience with democracy or anything similar, none whatsoever. All of their traditions, their customs, their historical experiences were as serfs or lords, nothing in between which colors their actions. It is amazing they have come as far as they have in such a short time and that they haven't slid further back toward totalitarianism than they have. Remember, according to the historians, during the German invasion in WW2 the people did not respond to the government's call to arms to protect Communism. The response, and a huge one I believe, was the subsequent call to defend Mother Russia.

These things, even today, help me understand Russia's actions and reactions. Of course my views are influenced by living with my wife's aunt, who participated in the Hungarian Revolution. She delighted in telling the story about the Russian soldier who shot a toilet with his machine gun because he had never seen one and thought it was for cleaning fish and the damn thing stole his fish.
 
Old 06-29-2020, 06:06 AM   #11
grumpyskeptic
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2016
Posts: 307

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Russia's belligerent stance makes them seem untrustworthy and sinister, not people you would want to do business with. I note that they only do business with people who are even more untrustworthy and sinister than they are, eg Syria.

While I obviously get my views of Russia from the western media, I cannot believe that the bad news reported is just a western propaganda conspiracy. In the past I used to teach a lot of Russian students and they all seemed to be nice people, and just like anyone else. It is a pity that Russia has been led in the wrong direction.
 
Old 06-29-2020, 06:40 AM   #12
yancek
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Apr 2008
Distribution: PCLinux, Slackware
Posts: 9,059

Rep: Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937Reputation: 1937
Quote:
Russia's belligerent stance makes them seem untrustworthy and sinister
I'm quite sure the same is said about the US and Western European countries in Russia/China. Perspective. Look at the murderous regimes which have been supportedd by the US and European countries, often for the sole benefit of a large corporation(corporations). The portrayal of Russia as this great evil, overwhelming force is naive and inaccurate since the combined war budget of NATO and the US is and has been for many decades, much larger than that of Russia.

I think it would be a big mistake to take someone like Putin at his word but I believe you are on target with your comment about the Russian people, it's not the people in the different countries but the selfish, greedy leaders with their own agenda who create the problems.
 
Old 06-29-2020, 06:52 AM   #13
agillator
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2016
Distribution: Mint 19.1
Posts: 387

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Grumpy, if you want to further your understanding of Russia I suggest you read the book 'Mig Pilot: The Final Escape of Lt. Belenko'. Belenko is the Russian pilot who stole a Mig 25. The book was written in '83 but I believe it is still valid. It goes into his debriefing among other things and gives a good perspective of Russia, Russian life, the Russian military and the Russian government. I believe you are right - the Russian people are people like everyone else. They only know what they are told, etc. etc. However, I mentioned the earthquake in an earlier post. A few years later there was an earthquake in the Northwest - Seattle, I believe, that did a great deal of damage. A group of Russian construction workers from the area hit earlier appeared on their own dime (I seem to remember) to help with our reconstruction as payback for how our people helped them. That was a long time ago so I don't remember the details for sure, but that is what I remember. But remember what several of us have said about their history, Mother Russia, and leadership. I think an understanding of those things explains what you see today. You do need to factor in the emerging middle class but i believe it is not yet a major factor. If it survives and continues to grow I think it may soon be but is not yet. By the way, all outward appearances aside, I believe China and Russia always have been and still are deadly enemies. That needs to be factored in. I believe a good indication of where Russia is today is the answer to 'Where are Yeltsin and Putin today?' Yeltsin is the man who stood on a tank and defied the communist leadership, wasn't he the mayor of Moscow or something? Anyway he was one of the early leaders of the movement that brought down the communist regime. You know who Putin was and I believe still is. Yeltsin is gone. Putin is still around although he has adapted to at least some extent. Remember that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck one can be forgiven for mistaking it for a duck. Compare those two and I think you will have a fair understanding of the situation with Russia today and the answer to your question.
 
Old 06-29-2020, 07:30 AM   #14
wpeckham
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2010
Location: Continental USA
Distribution: Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, RedHat, DSL, Puppy, CentOS, Knoppix, Mint-DE, Sparky, Vsido, tinycore, Q4OS
Posts: 3,339

Rep: Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435Reputation: 1435
The roots of this are deep in the history of the area and nation.

In the first place, the Russian peoples have always been a collection of somewhat distrustful and fiercely independent groups only ever brought together to fight common enemies.

Second, they have had their populations and nation decimated at least four times in recent history, three of those due to external conquest. That the conquest was unsuccessful does not undo the effects on the people. There is a deep need to be strong and present a fierce military front to the world. In Russian philosophy, all combat, diplomacy, and trade are variations of and tools of war. It is one huge and continuous conflict that they must win or die.

Third, at the fall of communism the country was left in the control of the crime families, security forces (long indoctrinated against democracy and western civilization), and the surviving leadership of the Communist Party. Expecting them to instantly want to take their place as a cooperating member of the democratic states or the EU is just unrealistic.

Once the generation of Putin is in the past, slow change is possible. It is not to be expected within my lifetime, but perhaps within yours.

They are strong people, and not stupid. In time the economic, military, and social advantages of friendly and cooperative relations should win them over.

Last edited by wpeckham; 06-29-2020 at 07:33 AM.
 
Old 06-29-2020, 11:25 AM   #15
DavidMcCann
LQ Veteran
 
Registered: Jul 2006
Location: London
Distribution: PCLinuxOS, Xubuntu
Posts: 5,560

Rep: Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979
It's interesting to read the detective stories, set in the 19th century, by Boris Akunin. The villains are often English!
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[SOLVED] Terminal on Linux Mint 17.1 version behaving like actual terminator animal in Terminator movie chanikya Linux - Newbie 1 03-16-2016 03:09 PM
LXer: XCOM: Enemy Unknown, With The Enemy Within Expansion Reviewed On Linux LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 02-13-2015 01:42 AM
DIG, why it's behaving like this... LucL Linux - Networking 2 03-10-2011 03:14 PM
OSS != Communism vxc69 General 33 05-22-2007 03:03 AM
LXer: GNU and Communism--Labeling for the Dumb and the Dumber LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 01-14-2006 07:01 PM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:14 PM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration