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Old 01-21-2019, 03:28 PM   #61
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
illegally entering & illegally staying in a country are two separate things.
The USA (seem to) rely on cheap labor, and seem to enable people without papers, instead of deterring that sort of illegal stay.
The article above also mentions "The Immigration Reform That Never Happened While Everyone is Talking about The Wall".
My point precisely.
As long as the USA doesn't change what happens to immigrants inside the country, it doesn't matter what exactly they build or don't build on the border...

More important points made in the article, further towards the end, under the heading "The Reason".
We agree on this part ondoho. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the problem starts with both political parties benefiting from the status quo. Democrats get to increase their voting base that is easy to exploit, Republicans get cheap labor that is easy to exploit. Two wings on the same bird. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLLt-a6dI_0

We need a third, fourth party etc... Both parties have for the most part become terribly corrupted.

I also find it interesting that the illegal workers are arrested and deported, however, you do not hear about any of the companies/executives/managers etc... being arrested, fined and incarcerated for hiring illegal labor. If the incentive to come to the country illegally was removed (unable to find work, unable to get free healthcare etc...) then one would presume that you would see a dramatic decrease in illegal immigration. Some states have started using "E-Verify" to help reduce this problem, but again, untli the companies are held responsible how will things change.
https://www.e-verify.gov/

Also, keep in mind the vast amount of narcotics that come across the border. It is a well known stat that for every "mule" they find at least 20 others made it across the border undetected. So how do we address the drug problem? How to reduce addiction? These are also questions that need to be asked and addressed.
https://drugabuse.com/featured/drug-...cross-borders/
https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/fi...resolution.pdf

How does your country handle these issues? How effective is it?

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 01-21-2019 at 03:45 PM.
 
Old 01-21-2019, 03:46 PM   #62
ondoho
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strange, whenever someone starts explaining american politics to me, i think:
is the general populace over there really that stupid? is that really how you succesfully bamboozle them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
I also find it interesting that the illegal workers are arrested and deported, however, you do not hear about any of the companies/executives/managers etc... being arrested, fined and incarcerated for hiring illegal labor.
yep.

Quote:
How does your country handle these issues? How effective is it?
no, i'm done comparing apples with oranges.
 
Old 01-21-2019, 08:52 PM   #63
ChuangTzu
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Ron Paul offers alternative solution to fixing America's illegal immigration problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4YxREQBXNQ
 
Old 01-27-2019, 06:01 PM   #64
ChuangTzu
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Students Blame Trump For Shutdown... Until Hearing The Offer He Made Dems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI9c6QMXGi8

Students Hate Trump's Immigration Quotes… Don’t Realize They’re From Democrats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrnfbN2_yG0

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 01-27-2019 at 06:03 PM.
 
Old 01-28-2019, 01:45 AM   #65
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Students Blame Trump For Shutdown... Until Hearing The Offer He Made Dems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI9c6QMXGi8

Students Hate Trump's Immigration Quotes… Don’t Realize They’re From Democrats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrnfbN2_yG0
"Look, I tricked them not only once, but twice! I'm a clever student bully! I'm also a few years older than those first years I interviewed, and I like to choose the most impressionable ones (mostly female) because that's when my tricks work best!"
 
Old 01-28-2019, 09:47 AM   #66
cynwulf
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I've yet to see evidence that the "wall" is anything but shallow populism. A lot of typical posturing and rhetoric from someone who appeals to right wing xenophobic nationalists and readily demonises minorities for a political end.

He knows his "wall" will most likely never see the light of day and then he can just blame democrats. It's a farce which is not even worth the discussions going on.

The immigration problem is a separate and very real issue. Much of Latin America is rotting away under corrupt US sponsored regimes and drug running - yet the focus is only on a country like Venezuela, simply because it has not let US backed puppets in - but the pressure is clearly on - as with Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan before that, the goal is "regime change" - to install a friendly puppet to replace the current regime and better serve the usual oil interests.

You only have to do a little bit of reading on a notable example such as the Odebrecht scandal to realise how deep rooted and widespread the corruption is in that part of the world.

The immigration to the US is a consequence of this.
 
Old 01-28-2019, 03:41 PM   #67
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cynwulf, you bring up a very valid point and those puppet regimes are a major part of the problem as is the hypocrisy of the governments/politicians that support them.

Regarding the wall, thousands of ranchers have invited the democrat leaders to come to their property that borders US/Mexico. They want to show them how easy it is to literally walk around and climb over the pathetic fencing they put up decades ago, some sections you can literally push over the barb wire fence and walk over it. So far not a single Democrat has taken up the offer. Most of these ranchers have stated they are willing to donate some of their land in order to have the wall/barrier built. Wanting to stop or reduce "illegal immigration" is not xenophobic; the issue is illegal immigration not all immigration. Legal immigrants greatly help society.

Also keep in mind that the section of the wall/barrier built just south of San Diego has greatly reduced illegal crossing of the border.

Ref: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-m...n-diego-sector

but the news does not want people to know that it works and that people, especially those that work on the border are demanding it:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.f123174ddbcb

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 01-28-2019 at 04:20 PM.
 
Old 01-29-2019, 01:59 AM   #68
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Most of these ranchers have stated they are willing to donate some of their land in order to have the wall/barrier built.
why do i find this so hard to believe?
even if it were true, "Most" is crucial in this case. What's the point of having miles of perfect wall, only to have a few hundred feet gap in it?
and that nicely illustrates the futility & absurdity of the whole thing.
plese refer to e.g. this article for more information.

Quote:
Wanting to stop or reduce "illegal immigration" is not xenophobic; the issue is illegal immigration not all immigration. Legal immigrants greatly help society.
no, the issue is illegal entry, as i tried to point out to you already:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
once again:
illegally entering & illegally staying in a country are two separate things.
The USA (seem to) rely on cheap labor, and seem to enable people without papers, instead of deterring that sort of illegal stay.
The article above also mentions "The Immigration Reform That Never Happened While Everyone is Talking about The Wall".
My point precisely.
As long as the USA doesn't change what happens to immigrants inside the country, it doesn't matter what exactly they build or don't build on the border...
again, refer to this article for more information.

all in all, i think the USA and the world have much more important things to focus on than the wall itself, and this thread seems like proof for the theory that trump just uses the shutdown to cover up something even more sinister.

user chuangtzu, i don't understand why you are so much pushing for this absurdity. there's cleverer ways to be a conservative (republican for you), or even anti immigration.
 
Old 01-29-2019, 02:11 AM   #69
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
...
user chuangtzu, i don't understand why you are so much pushing for this absurdity. there's cleverer ways to be a conservative (republican for you), or even anti immigration.
I was wondering the same myself, and you said it perfectly, I must take my hat off to you if I were wearing one.

In all honestly though, I think sometimes it's just better to let people think whatever the hell they want, because no matter how much logic you try and tell them, they are still going to keep pushing anyway. But a nobel effort all the same...

Personally, I've given up trying to talk sense into people, it really is just a waste of time I'm really starting to think...

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 01-29-2019 at 02:13 AM. Reason: forgot "much" :doh:
 
Old 01-29-2019, 02:45 AM   #70
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
sometimes it's just better to let people think whatever the hell they want, because no matter how much logic you try and tell them, they are still going to keep pushing anyway.
they can think what they want anytime, but it's their pushing that keeps on reviving the discussion...

so, what's Orange Man up to these days?
 
Old 01-29-2019, 03:16 AM   #71
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
...
so, what's Orange Man up to these days?
Can you stop hiding behind slang and just state exactly what you mean by that, and who exactly you are talking about.

If you are saying that others that hold a different opinion are not entitled to, then you are very wrong about that. If you are saying that people have to have an opinion one way or the other, you are also very wrong about that. If you are saying that because I have an different opinion (which seems to be along the same lines as yours), I must respond and/or should respond, you are also very wrong about that too.

I also have every right to respond as I did, to say that when clearly someone is going to stick with their opinion regardless of what anyone else says right/wrong/indifferent, then there is little point in just repeating the same arguments over and over again. But of course if you or anyone else would like to, then that's up to you and anyone else. I was simply stating my own position, which I have every right to do, even if you don't like it.

Are you deliberately misunderstanding what I say? Because rightly, wrongly or indifferently, it seems to me you are, and I don't understand why you feel the need to do it either, it really is beyond me.

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 01-29-2019 at 03:36 AM. Reason: additions
 
Old 01-29-2019, 07:02 AM   #72
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Regarding the wall, thousands of ranchers have invited the democrat leaders to come to their property that borders US/Mexico. They want to show them how easy it is to literally walk around and climb over the pathetic fencing they put up decades ago, some sections you can literally push over the barb wire fence and walk over it. So far not a single Democrat has taken up the offer. Most of these ranchers have stated they are willing to donate some of their land in order to have the wall/barrier built. Wanting to stop or reduce "illegal immigration" is not xenophobic; the issue is illegal immigration not all immigration. Legal immigrants greatly help society.
This does not change a thing about Trump's politics or intentions. The wall is still a play to xenophobes, nationalists, racists, etc, throughout the whole country, not just those few living on the borders. Trump doesn't represent them, just like he doesn't represent anyone else. It is purely populist politics, the politics of hate, fear and division.

I have to agree with the consensus that the "wall" is an idiotic, childish idea - which is why I can't take it seriously. For me, it's simply a political play... playing to people's prejudices and fears. Blaming a minority for the failings of successive governments.

The "wall" embodies the politics of fear and hate in that it gives the clear message, that these unwanted people are coming in and the border has to be sealed to keep them out. In any other part of the world, the proposal of a wall would be met with derision.

Back in 2016 Trump made these comments...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-mexico-rapes

There is no clear differentiation there, just a lot of weasel words.
 
Old 01-29-2019, 07:19 AM   #73
enorbet
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I don't even begin to understand the value of a border wall. It seems to me that The Great Wall of China and Hadrian's Wall, just to name two, were at best a bit of an inconvenience when invaders were restricted to walking and very slow tunneling. On a Cost/Benefit analysis they all seem to fail rather miserably even given restrictions that no longer exist. Why would anyone want to spend anything on one in the modern age?
 
Old 01-29-2019, 07:53 AM   #74
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Or in more recent times the Maginot Line.
 
Old 01-29-2019, 01:29 PM   #75
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Can you stop hiding behind slang and just state exactly what you mean by that, and who exactly you are talking about.
don't tell me what to do or say.

there's only one recognizably orange man in this thread; both head and hair, haven't seen him naked yet.

but enough of that, at least from me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
god, i almost miss those articles.
nowadays, even his supporters say you cannot take seriously the things he says, nobody's outraged about yet another "speech" with short sentences and excessively repeated limited vocabulary.

a journalistic gem:
Quote:
The businessman and would-be president has claimed that there is “mind-boggling” link between rape and illegal immigration:

“If you look at the statistics of people coming, you look at the statistics on rape, on crime, on everything coming in illegally into this country it’s mind-boggling!” he said.
 
  


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