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Old 01-20-2019, 07:14 AM   #46
AnanthaP
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Latest news is that prayer mats (guess to whom it belonged) found in arizona or new mexico.

Going to raise the stakes again?

OK
 
Old 01-20-2019, 07:30 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
ondoho, a person is an illegal immigrant when they enter a country illegally, or they violate a legal immigration process. A few examples, if you cross the border bypassing the ports of entry you entered the country illegally. If you enter the country via a work visa or student visa and stay past the expiry date then you are in the country illegally. Make sense?
i had hoped you'd read some of the stuff i linked. not asking you to accept it, but if you'd at least considered my side of the argument, your reply should've looked slightly different.

but that's the internet for you. :shrugs:

anyhow, no, it doesn't make sense:

"Entering the country illegally" isn't the same as "Being an illegal immigrant".
It is a perfectly common refugee scenario to enter a country illegally and then apply for asylum.
Nobody talks about them being "illegals". i know this from the country I grew up in, I know many of these asylum seekers first hand. They now live perfectly normal, integrated lives.

I don't know what's going on in the USA, but my guess is that the chance of success for asylum seekers is so low that they don't even bother trying. That and an economy/administration that enables people without papers to survive, even make (a little) money.

oh and another thing: there's green, open borders everywhere. usually much more than on USA's south border. and countries deal with it.
the only reason the USA is even considering this wall is because they have a unique situation: most immigrants come from south, their south border is fairly narrow and straight.
but it's such a futile attempt.
just suppose they build that wall:
  • people still come by boat
  • people still come by plane
  • people still come hiding in freight containers on trucks and trains
  • etc. etc.
the whole idea would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
 
Old 01-20-2019, 10:56 AM   #48
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If walls are racist, immoral and ineffective then explain this.
http://newobserveronline.com/jerusal...nic-cleansing/
 
Old 01-20-2019, 11:02 AM   #49
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slackware_fan_Fred View Post
If walls are racist, immoral and ineffective then explain this.
http://newobserveronline.com/jerusal...nic-cleansing/
They still build tunnels under them for one thing. For another thing, certain groups still fire rockets over them.

It's also a form of apartheid, which Trump seems to support for another...

The land seizes by Israel are also illegal under international law. So it's not a very good argument for one more thing...
 
Old 01-20-2019, 11:12 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
They still build tunnels under them for one thing. For another thing, certain groups still fire rockets over them.

It's also a form of apartheid, which Trump seems to support for another...

The land seizes by Israel are also illegal under international law. So it's not a very good argument for one more thing...
1. I agree that tunnels are possible but it condenses crossing so its easier to control.
2. Israel Belongs to the Palestinians, I only posted that because if the Democrats & Republicans seem to think its fine for Israel then why not USA.
 
Old 01-20-2019, 11:19 AM   #51
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slackware_fan_Fred View Post
1. I agree that tunnels are possible but it condenses crossing so its easier to control.
...
Not really, you can't see a tunnel underground with your eyes...
 
Old 01-20-2019, 11:40 AM   #52
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Yes you can

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Not really, you can't see a tunnel underground with your eyes...
Science!
https://www.livescience.com/5504-rad...ls-border.html
 
Old 01-20-2019, 12:04 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
ChuangTzu, you keep insisting that the "wall" is "needed", yet you haven't put up any reasonable argument to back this claim up. Is that because even mayor's of the towns and cites along the southern border also say it won't work. So why are they saying it won't work, if it would ?

I think you should understand that they would have a far better idea then anyone else would. They see the problems there better than anyone one else, including Trump and yourself. I guess you've never heard of people just tunnelling UNDER that wall, it happens all the time from what I read. How's a "wall" by itself going to stop that ? Which seems to be Trump's ONLY solution.

It's a very short sighted solution, and is no solution full stop, period. Based on your posts, I can only conclude you are indeed a Trump supporter, so call a spade a spade and put your cards on the table please.

Perhaps you should read the following links since you seem to like posting them yourself - I like this part of the first link:

(please pay attention to what's in bold)


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46815569
https://www.cato.org/publications/co...wall-wont-work

Funny how the Democrats from what I've read say largely the SAME things...
jsb, In the USA protecting the border is a federal issue not a state issue. So what some of the Governors, Mayors want is not relevant to the issue. Border Patrol, Customs, ICE, Coast Guard are all federally mandated to protect the borders and ports of entry. Also, interesting to note that those same agencies are the ones asking for a wall/barrier along with other reinforcement strategies, and they have been doing so for decades. This issue has lasted for a long time and noone has wanted to properly deal with from either political party. Pushing the can further down the road is not going to help, similar to the National Debt, but that's another huge problem.

PS: I always find it curious though, unless someone lives in the USA, Mexico, Canada, why care about the border issue and whether or not there is a wall/barrier?

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 01-20-2019 at 12:17 PM. Reason: added PS
 
Old 01-20-2019, 12:14 PM   #54
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
i had hoped you'd read some of the stuff i linked. not asking you to accept it, but if you'd at least considered my side of the argument, your reply should've looked slightly different.

but that's the internet for you. :shrugs:

anyhow, no, it doesn't make sense:

"Entering the country illegally" isn't the same as "Being an illegal immigrant".
It is a perfectly common refugee scenario to enter a country illegally and then apply for asylum.
Nobody talks about them being "illegals". i know this from the country I grew up in, I know many of these asylum seekers first hand. They now live perfectly normal, integrated lives.

I don't know what's going on in the USA, but my guess is that the chance of success for asylum seekers is so low that they don't even bother trying. That and an economy/administration that enables people without papers to survive, even make (a little) money.

oh and another thing: there's green, open borders everywhere. usually much more than on USA's south border. and countries deal with it.
the only reason the USA is even considering this wall is because they have a unique situation: most immigrants come from south, their south border is fairly narrow and straight.
but it's such a futile attempt.
just suppose they build that wall:
  • people still come by boat
  • people still come by plane
  • people still come hiding in freight containers on trucks and trains
  • etc. etc.
the whole idea would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
consider these:

Canada:
http://canadaimmigrationvisa.com/visatype.html
penalty for violating their laws is immediate imprisonment followed by immediate deportation: https://www.immigroup.com/news/enter...s-consequences
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/

Mexicos policy:
https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...on_policy.html
Quote:
Mexico's legal immigration policies are designed to provide the country with the skill sets that the country needs. There's no talk of letting in those who'll do the work that Mexicans won't do. Mexican immigration law accepts those who have the "necessary funds for their sustenance" while denying entry to those who are not healthy or would "upset the equilibrium of the national demographics."

There will be no fundamental transformation of Mexico under the Mexican constitution. While we invite illegal immigration with jobs, service in the U.S. military, driver's licenses and discounted college tuition denied U.S. citizens from another state, Mexico slams the door.

Article 32 of Mexico's constitution bans non-native-born residents from holding sensitive jobs and joining the country's military in peacetime. Article 33 gives the president of Mexico the right to deport foreigners at will without the deportation hearing that 90% of our illegals fail to show up for. Foreigners are prohibited from participating in Mexican politics "in any way."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2010/...chelle-malkin/

Norway:
https://norskbloggen.no/new-rules-fo...ion-to-norway/
https://sputniknews.com/europe/20151...asylum-policy/
 
Old 01-20-2019, 12:16 PM   #55
ChuangTzu
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PS: regarding tunneling under the wall, that is why the original plan was for 30+ ft high and 30+ ft. deep. Not impossible, but the objective is to make it harder to discourage the activity. Similar to alarms in cars and homes, it does not eliminate the threat of break ins, it reduces the likelihood that you will be the chosen victim.

Also, its much easier to walk across an unprotected border then it is to enter via a port of entry.
 
Old 01-20-2019, 12:24 PM   #56
Slackware_fan_Fred
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Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
PS: regarding tunneling under the wall, that is why the original plan was for 30+ ft high and 30+ ft. deep. Not impossible, but the objective is to make it harder to discourage the activity. Similar to alarms in cars and homes, it does not eliminate the threat of break ins, it reduces the likelihood that you will be the chosen victim.

Also, its much easier to walk across an unprotected border then it is to enter via a port of entry.
Exactly nothing is perfect but it's better than doing nothing.
 
Old 01-20-2019, 07:37 PM   #57
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slackware_fan_Fred View Post
Yes, that's right, keep reading...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
jsb, In the USA protecting the border is a federal issue not a state issue. So what some of the Governors, Mayors want is not relevant to the issue. Border Patrol, Customs, ICE, Coast Guard are all federally mandated to protect the borders and ports of entry. Also, interesting to note that those same agencies are the ones asking for a wall/barrier along with other reinforcement strategies, and they have been doing so for decades. This issue has lasted for a long time and noone has wanted to properly deal with from either political party. Pushing the can further down the road is not going to help, similar to the National Debt, but that's another huge problem.

PS: I always find it curious though, unless someone lives in the USA, Mexico, Canada, why care about the border issue and whether or not there is a wall/barrier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
PS: regarding tunneling under the wall, that is why the original plan was for 30+ ft high and 30+ ft. deep. Not impossible, but the objective is to make it harder to discourage the activity. Similar to alarms in cars and homes, it does not eliminate the threat of break ins, it reduces the likelihood that you will be the chosen victim.

Also, its much easier to walk across an unprotected border then it is to enter via a port of entry.
Did you guys even read my post #45 ??

I don't think you's did, go back and read it...

Hint: it talks about detecting people just walking across and border. It's much easier to detect people just walking across a border than people using tunnels underground. Also, it's not unprotected when you have something called a "Border Patrol" patrolling it.

ChuangTzu, I'm well aware that it's a federal matter regarding "controlling ports of entry", it's the same in my country too in that respect, as I strongly suspect it's also the same in that respect anywhere else too, but you seem to have missed the point I was making...

PS and for another hint: There is NO wall around Area 51, yet if you try and breach it's security, you WILL GET CAUGHT, what's that tell ya's...?

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 01-20-2019 at 07:52 PM. Reason: added extra area 51 comment
 
Old 01-20-2019, 08:16 PM   #58
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jsb, you can't possibly be serious.

First, Area 51 like any high security military base, has lethal authorization for those that breach/climb the defenses/barrier. Second, you do not have tens of thousands of people each year crossing into a military base, again because of the threat of lethal force and well military weapons and all... Third, there are methods to prevent tunneling or at least make it very difficult. Fourth, the idea (as mentioned in my other posts) is to deter, slow down, minimize and prevent most crossings. I do not think you will ever be able to 100% completely stop all of it, even if you had the entire border manned with the military 24/7 you could still bribe some people to let you in, etc...


PS: Your example actually helps to prove my point, if you have a narrow point of possible failure then it is easier to catch and correct the "failure". Example, climbing over a military base barrier compared to crossing at any point over a 2,000 mile area.

Ref: https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-...military-bases
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ic...-military-base

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 01-20-2019 at 08:22 PM.
 
Old 01-20-2019, 08:26 PM   #59
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
jsb, you can't possibly be serious.

First, Area 51 like any high security military base, has lethal authorization for those that breach/climb the defenses/barrier. Second, you do not have tens of thousands of people each year crossing into a military base, again because of the threat of lethal force and well military weapons and all... Third, there are methods to prevent tunneling or at least make it very difficult. Fourth, the idea (as mentioned in my other posts) is to deter, slow down, minimize and prevent most crossings. I do not think you will ever be able to 100% completely stop all of it, even if you had the entire border manned with the military 24/7 you could still bribe some people to let you in, etc...
There is NO wall to "climb" at Area 51. You still seem to be missing the point I'm was making...

They could just dig deeper for tunnelling under Trump's wall.

Quote:
PS: Your example actually helps to prove my point, if you have a narrow point of possible failure then it is easier to catch and correct the "failure". Example, climbing over a military base barrier compared to crossing at any point over a 2,000 mile area.
...
You may think so, but not so sure it does...
 
Old 01-21-2019, 02:33 AM   #60
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
PS: I always find it curious though, unless someone lives in the USA, Mexico, Canada, why care about the border issue and whether or not there is a wall/barrier?
  • we are interested in international politics, because we do not live in a "national bubble"
  • many countries have an increased trend towards mindless populism and "trump-like idiots at the top of their parties", some even outright say that trump (and/or the usa) are their idols. This makes me wish that the USA would implode politically (possibly also economically - sorry guys), because that would surely set a signal towards mindless (greedy?) populists around the globe
  • US politics are just so entertaining, like a school yard fight that quickly escalates: "But you started it!" - "No, YOU did!" - "Did NOT!" - etc. - and it's gotten so much more entertaining since trump
beyond that, ChuangTzu, I cannot comment on your "counter arguments" anymore.
maybe this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
an interesting article.
it focuses on one thing (the border, the wall).
it mentions many interesting things, and i fear that taking out one quote will draw attention away from others, but anyhow:
Quote:
As the amount of fencing and the number of agents grew, the share of unauthorized immigrants entering illegally fell, but the number entering legally (and then staying illegally) rose.
once again:
illegally entering & illegally staying in a country are two separate things.
The USA (seem to) rely on cheap labor, and seem to enable people without papers, instead of deterring that sort of illegal stay.
The article above also mentions "The Immigration Reform That Never Happened While Everyone is Talking about The Wall".
My point precisely.
As long as the USA doesn't change what happens to immigrants inside the country, it doesn't matter what exactly they build or don't build on the border...

More important points made in the article, further towards the end, under the heading "The Reason".
 
  


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