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Old 01-14-2019, 09:10 AM   #1
Sid95
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Who do you think will fold first? Trump Or Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer?


I don't know, but I sure feel bad for those federal workers who need that paycheck to live by.

Trump is blaming everybody but himself for this shutdown, and yet last month, he said to Chuck Schumer, "I will owned this shutdown." Trump is acting like a child who won't eat his vegetables unless he gets his cake first.

The Reps and the Dems are in agreement to reopen the government and discuss the wall issue on a separate bill, but trump keeps refusing to listen unless he gets his cake first.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 10:51 AM   #2
wpeckham
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I dislike bringing politics here, but I will echo what I stated on another site:
The Donald entered into this with no exit strategy, forget him in this.
The democrat stand is well stated, strong, and has he backing of the majority of the voting public.
The ONLY exit I see is if the Senate takes up the bills put forward by the house (under Mitch, or bypassing him) and overrides the POTUS veto. There are enough Republicans who see losing the Senate in 2020 on this no matter HOW it ends that the support within the GOP

The GOP MUST raise an exit strategy, because no one else is going to give, and every day pushes more red voters blue!
 
Old 01-14-2019, 11:00 AM   #3
Slackware_fan_Fred
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I agree with wpeckham having polotics here... but
Anyone who doesn't want a Border wall then don't use a Firewall.
Walls prevent Viruses, Criminals, etc. from entering.
I see a Country like a Computer if you don't protect it from threats your in trouble.

Last edited by Slackware_fan_Fred; 01-14-2019 at 11:30 AM.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 11:37 AM   #4
wpeckham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slackware_fan_Fred View Post
Anyone who doesn't want a Border wall then don't use a Firewall.
Walls prevent Viruses, Criminals, etc. from entering.
And as any Network/System Administrator or security expert will tell you, alone are not security, and a wall where it is not needed is wasted effort and money.

Besides, the two cases almost could not be more different. Bad things coming into the country are not coming through the southern border interface, they are arriving as cargo and visitors in air and sea ports.

Building more barrier at the southern border is a it installing a firewall between two of your offices while the interface to the internet is almost wide open. Not just a solution not needed, but removing effort and resources from a threat vector where it is needed to a vector carrying no threat where is firewall may e convenient but is not needed to answer a threat.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 11:46 AM   #5
DavidMcCann
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You can keep your country secure with a border wall: just as long as you are prepared to kill those who attempt to get over it, as they did before the fall of communism in Europe or as they do in Israel.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 12:32 PM   #6
hazel
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So what became of the claim that Mexico would pay for the wall? No POTUS tweets about that lately. I wonder why.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 02:30 PM   #7
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First a few clarifications:

1) the wall/steel barrier is already being constructed and is working very well in the areas that have it.

2) the $5 billion+ is to fund more of the wall along the border

3) Over 10 years ago, President Obama, Chuck Shumer, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and of course others all voted and passed a bill that provided over $20 billion for a "border wall" and other border security measures, then never spent any of that money. Technically that money is still earmarked/approved for the wall/border security, however, no-one knows where that $20 billion is or what happened to it.

4) Mexico is building a proper wall on their southern border with Central America to help stop people from illegally entering Mexico.

5) Mexico agreed to build economic investment zones near the border with the USA to create jobs so that people will be less likely to have a desire to come to the US.

6) the new trade deal with Mexico has saved billions of dollars already and will save more (paying for the wall)

7) Democrats claim the wall is too expensive yet as mentioned above 10 years ago they passed a bill providing $20 billion to fund a wall, they also want to increase foreign aid by $35 billion.

8) The UK, has no need for a wall (Hazel, David etc...) because you are on an island, your airports, tunnels etc... act as a type of wall. The USA has an exposed border several thousand miles long that tens of thousands of people are literally walking across each year.

9) Europe, USA and other countries once had very strict immigration policies that helped to protect the country from: criminals, disease, vagrants etc... Think Ellis Island in NY as an example. You had to prove what your job skills were, have a minimum education standard, undergo medical examinations, attend citizenship and cultural classes etc... Norway, Canada and a few countries still do this. It works, but unchecked illegal immigration destroys countries. England is trying to save themselves via Brexit over this concern.

Legal immigration is wonderful. One thing a lot of people do not realize is the moment you enter a country illegally, you technically already committed a crime. The Democrats are playing a dangerous game, that will not end well for their party. If given the choice of supporting Americans (born and immigrant) or illegals, they will lose terribly in 2020.


PS: I would like to see a bill passed that requires all Congressional staffers and politicians pay to be withheld whenever a partial shutdown occurs. That would provide a quick motivation to find consensus rather quickly. By the way, President Trump only takes a legally required $1 salary as President. If Pelosi and Schumer were smart, they would use this opportunity to fund the wall and have "Amnesty" for the so called DACA kids at the same time. Win/Win for both sides and for the country.

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 01-14-2019 at 02:35 PM.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 04:34 PM   #8
sgrlscz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
First a few clarifications:

3) Over 10 years ago, President Obama, Chuck Shumer, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and of course others all voted and passed a bill that provided over $20 billion for a "border wall" and other border security measures, then never spent any of that money. Technically that money is still earmarked/approved for the wall/border security, however, no-one knows where that $20 billion is or what happened to it.
If you're thinking about the bill that keeps showing up in memes, then you, like the memes, are wrong. Shumer was part of the Gang of Eight that proposed a $46 billion border security and immigration bill, but it didn't include a border wall. It included funding for building some additional fencing and fixing some of the border fencing from the 2006 Secure Fence Act. The vast majority of the funding went to more Border Control agents. It also included changes to immigration and visa policies.

As for where that funding went...it was never appropriated. The Republican controlled House refused to consider the bill, so it died at the hands of the Republicans. Because it was never considered by the House, that means that Nancy Pelosi never even had an opportunity to vote for it. Hillary Clinton was out of the Senate by that point, so she also did not vote for the bill. Finally, since it was killed by the House, it never made it to the President's desk, so Obama did not sign it into law. No law = no funding.

If there is some other bill that you know of, I'd like to know what it is. All I can find is the 2006 Secure Fence Act, which provided $1.4B in funding for fencing.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 06:26 PM   #9
ChuangTzu
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The Secure Fence Act was signed into law on Oct. 26, 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLJSTGA3hs

FLASHBACK: Schumer Sounded Like Trump on Immigration in 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlfOPvUABnw

Walls Don't Divide Us, Hypocrisy Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHnGFkUS_lc

Nancy Pelosi on Immigration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZHddAyzLKk

The World's Biggest and Most Famous Walls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7yP8JJP38

Trump Is Not Alone — Animated Map Shows 6 Border Walls Being Built Around The World
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obM4lzcQV7I

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 01-14-2019 at 06:33 PM.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 08:31 PM   #10
frankbell
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I'm staying out of this. My views are well stated elsewhere. But think this article from my local rag is germane to the discussion. The author, an historian, maintains that Mr. Trump is, as my old boss used to say, in error as regards the efficaty of walls.

https://pilotonline.com/opinion/colu...db795b0ca.html
 
Old 01-14-2019, 08:57 PM   #11
sgrlscz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
The Secure Fence Act was signed into law on Oct. 26, 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijLJSTGA3hs

FLASHBACK: Schumer Sounded Like Trump on Immigration in 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlfOPvUABnw

Walls Don't Divide Us, Hypocrisy Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHnGFkUS_lc

Nancy Pelosi on Immigration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZHddAyzLKk

The World's Biggest and Most Famous Walls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7yP8JJP38

Trump Is Not Alone Animated Map Shows 6 Border Walls Being Built Around The World
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obM4lzcQV7I
None of those answers my question. Where is this so-called legislation that Shumer, Pelosi, Obama, and Clinton passed that provided over '$20 billion for a "border wall"'? The only bill that I can find that even comes close is the one that was killed by the Republican-controlled House in 2013. So, does that mean Republicans didn't think border security mattered? Or maybe they're just as hypocritical. It sure doesn't take much googling to find a lot of hypocrisy from the current president. Hypocrisy is just one of the problems in American politics, and it's just as strong in the Republicans.

If Republicans feel so strongly about border security, why did they refuse to even debate the bill in 2013? Why didn't the Republicans fund the wall when they controlled the House, the Senate, and the White House? They were also in charge at the start of the shutdown, but didn't use their power to pass any funding for the wall and end the shutdown (or even prevent it in the first place). Trump had 2 years with his party in complete control, and they showed they were more than willing to use the reconciliation process to get their agenda passed, but he obviously didn't consider it important enough to pass then.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 09:32 PM   #12
ChuangTzu
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Regarding your last comment of why did they not pass a bill when they had the House, Senate and White House, simple answer is they did not have enough seats in the Senate to avoid a filibuster, you need 60+ votes for that. Another option would be for 2/3rds of the states to vote for it, which is a way to bypass Congress in extreme circumstances, however, that is rarely done, and has not been since the Senate became an electoral process rather than state appointed positions.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/pol...e9O/story.html
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...er-wall-now-w/
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/68350...ergency-powers
https://www.congress.gov/search?q=%7...wType=expanded

Will keep searching for the exact bill, but I think the above link will lead to it....

PS: Keep in mind, I think the best solution is for both sides to find a Win/Win/Win---Dem's get what they want, Repub's, get what they want, and citizens get what they need/want. I am willing to wager that if the Dem's offer $5-10 billion or even the $25 billion Schumer mentioned before, and also ask for Amnesty, etc... That the Republicans and Pres. Trump would sign off on it. They really are missing a great opportunity here, both sides are.

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 01-14-2019 at 09:37 PM.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 09:48 PM   #13
Myk267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
First a few clarifications:

6) the new trade deal with Mexico has saved billions of dollars already and will save more (paying for the wall)
The USMCA (which also include Canada) couldn't have saved anything yet because it hasn't been approved by congress.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 09:57 PM   #14
jsbjsb001
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It just goes to show how much of a cry-baby Trump is...

"Give me MY wall!!!"
"NO!"
"I"m not going to re-open the government until you do!!!"
"NO!"

It's the federal workers that are suffering, if Trump gave a rats ass about them, he would properly negotiate with the Democrats...
 
Old 01-14-2019, 10:18 PM   #15
sgrlscz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Regarding your last comment of why did they not pass a bill when they had the House, Senate and White House, simple answer is they did not have enough seats in the Senate to avoid a filibuster, you need 60+ votes for that. Another option would be for 2/3rds of the states to vote for it, which is a way to bypass Congress in extreme circumstances, however, that is rarely done, and has not been since the Senate became an electoral process rather than state appointed positions.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/pol...e9O/story.html
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...er-wall-now-w/
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/68350...ergency-powers
https://www.congress.gov/search?q=%7...wType=expanded

Will keep searching for the exact bill, but I think the above link will lead to it....

PS: Keep in mind, I think the best solution is for both sides to find a Win/Win/Win---Dem's get what they want, Repub's, get what they want, and citizens get what they need/want. I am willing to wager that if the Dem's offer $5-10 billion or even the $25 billion Schumer mentioned before, and also ask for Amnesty, etc... That the Republicans and Pres. Trump would sign off on it. They really are missing a great opportunity here, both sides are.
They could have used reconciliation, which is how they passed the tax cut, and how they tried to repeal ACA. Reconciliation allows them to pass certain budgetary legislation with a simple majority.

The only fencing bill that I can find that Shumer, Obama, Clinton, and Pelosi all voted for was the Secure Fence Act. However, that didn't provide $20 billion for a border wall. It approved a border fence, but only provided $1.4B in appropriation for something like 600-700 miles of fencing. Estimates at the time suggested it would likely cost up to $50B to build and maintain fencing for the entire border. There is probably funding buried in the DHS appropriations, since apparently, a little over $2B was spent on fencing, but the only other bill that I can find that specifically provided funds for fencing was the 2013 bill.

IMO the problem with the government today is that the two parties don't talk to each other. They perform for the media and scream at each other, but nobody listens. Compromise can't happen if nobody is listening.
 
  


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