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Old 12-18-2019, 04:44 PM   #76
enorbet
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I stumbled on this highly interesting take on capitalism, a Ted Talk, from a man wealthy beyond our wildest dreams, a Billionaire, but a billionaire with a sense of history and what makes Capitalism actually wiork and how it goes awry, and how it can be set back on course, in one of two inevitable ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2gO4DKVpa8
 
Old 12-18-2019, 05:50 PM   #77
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How about distributism, as opposed to both laissez-faire capitalism, ans state-controlled socialism? The concept is of putting the means of production into as many hands as possible. It has been advanced by thinkers as diverse as G.K.Chesterton and Thomas Jefferson. I believe it was Chesterton who wrote
Quote:
The problem with capitalism is not too many capitalists, but too few capitalists
I'm not sure how you make such a system work.

Last edited by dogpatch; 12-18-2019 at 05:51 PM. Reason: typos
 
Old 12-18-2019, 08:48 PM   #78
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Found some good reading:
http://isocracy.org/content/thomas-j...conomic-vision

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Servile_State
 
Old 12-19-2019, 09:20 PM   #79
ChuangTzu
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Toward a Truly Free Market: A Distributist Perspective on the Role of Government, Taxes, Health Care, Deficits, and More (Culture of Enterprise)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/161017027X?pldnSite=1

Distributism Basics with John Médaille
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYPQIJ0NHY8
 
Old 12-20-2019, 03:15 AM   #80
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Distributism seems like a possibly worthy goal but there is the sticky question of implementation by coercion which seems antithetical to both a Free Market and any form of democratic government. I can see that it could be fairly easily implemented by taking a portion of taxes and investing the total in a pool of stock options that pays out dividends to all citizens who pay taxes. This would likely take some of the sting out of taxes, reduce the motivation to tax shelter, and give every taxpayer a say and a stake in business. That could possibly work.

That said I take considerable exception with John Medaille and his Solidarity party in characterizing Capitalism solely as Late Stage Capitalism. It would be like defining every person as dead and buried since that's where we all end up. Capitalism, in my view is synonymous with Free Market in it's early stages. The path it has always been on that leads to what is called Late Stage is very real but not inevitable. There is no way short of extreme coercion to begin with a level playing field and even if we could that would obviously not last long. Some of the principles of Distributism has at least the potential to blur the hard divide between Supply and Demand, or more accurately, recognize that Suppliers are also Demand-ers (consumers) so there can be only short term advantage to becoming financially "elite".

The scary part, and this is borne out a bit by noticing the age of the video I linked and the direction of change since then, surely looks like the current elites may well achieve the most invasive and controlling Police State in human history and this time, Global in nature. It may well turn out that it will take something as widespread and generally devastating as the ravaging of life on Earth due to catastrophic climate change to unseat such power, and to finally pound home that we are literally and globally "all in the same boat".
 
Old 12-20-2019, 04:51 PM   #81
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Distributism seems like a possibly worthy goal but there is the sticky question of implementation by coercion which seems antithetical to both a Free Market and any form of democratic government. I can see that it could be fairly easily implemented by taking a portion of taxes and investing the total in a pool of stock options that pays out dividends to all citizens who pay taxes. This would likely take some of the sting out of taxes, reduce the motivation to tax shelter, and give every taxpayer a say and a stake in business. That could possibly work.

That said I take considerable exception with John Medaille and his Solidarity party in characterizing Capitalism solely as Late Stage Capitalism. It would be like defining every person as dead and buried since that's where we all end up. Capitalism, in my view is synonymous with Free Market in it's early stages. The path it has always been on that leads to what is called Late Stage is very real but not inevitable. There is no way short of extreme coercion to begin with a level playing field and even if we could that would obviously not last long. Some of the principles of Distributism has at least the potential to blur the hard divide between Supply and Demand, or more accurately, recognize that Suppliers are also Demand-ers (consumers) so there can be only short term advantage to becoming financially "elite".

The scary part, and this is borne out a bit by noticing the age of the video I linked and the direction of change since then, surely looks like the current elites may well achieve the most invasive and controlling Police State in human history and this time, Global in nature. It may well turn out that it will take something as widespread and generally devastating as the ravaging of life on Earth due to catastrophic climate change to unseat such power, and to finally pound home that we are literally and globally "all in the same boat".
A few points that are quite interesting about what is now called Distributism:
1) advocates no taxes except a land tax/real estate tax; the land tax increases on each successive property purchased acting as a natural "progressive" tax on the "rich". If you don't own property then no taxes etc...

2) encourages everyone to be self employed or to work in cooperatives/guilds.

3) discourages/prevents so called "too big to fail" by not allowing companies to become so large to begin with. Anti-monopoly

4) advocates a limited federal government, with most government action taking place at the local county/ward level and then state level.

5) states pay a tax to the federal government not individuals

6) anti war except "just wars"

7) distributism has been practiced for a long time even before the name was used: examples, Thomas Jefferson advocated its principles (see other links above), Amish live according to its principles, most countries operated this way before the industrial revolution, many religions operate in a distributive manner etc...

8) against banks and pro credit unions/coops.

9) places family as the central component/model of society (imagine that)

etc...

I read that Belloc actually advocated using education as a way to "teach" these principles causing a change of the heart/mind, rather than force. He was against forcing the principles with the exception of breaking up large companies that were operating as hidden/occult monopolies. In todays terms, think Walmart, Amazon, Apple, Google/Alphabet, Big Pharma, Big Oil/Energy, Bio.Tech/food companies etc...
Jefferson warned that his main concern with companies is that they were growing so large that they could one day "own" politicians and thereby control the government to serve their interests at the expense of the citizens and common man. Fast forward to today and isn't that the case?

They also make an interesting point that Capitalism without restrictions/regulations consolidates money/power in the hands of the few that own/control the government...Socialism/Communism consolidates money/power in the hands of the few that own/control the government.

These are very important debates/discussions to have. It is fascinating reading the letters of the US Founding Fathers and other world leaders/thinkers/philosophers from bygone eras discuss the most fundamentally important ideas/ideals facing mankind. Today we discuss tv shows, the weather, sports and other drivel. [sigh/]

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 12-20-2019 at 04:54 PM.
 
Old 12-20-2019, 05:08 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I stumbled on this highly interesting take on capitalism, a Ted Talk, from a man wealthy beyond our wildest dreams, a Billionaire, but a billionaire with a sense of history and what makes Capitalism actually wiork and how it goes awry, and how it can be set back on course, in one of two inevitable ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2gO4DKVpa8
Very good video!
 
Old 12-20-2019, 08:08 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Very good video!
I agree but it is also pretty damned scary in context. It seems to me considering how many years ago that talk took place that his fellow plutocrats opted instead for the Police State. When the Attorney General all but demands backdoors in everything including encryption it's getting pretty Orwellian. That anyone in the Fed values private information so highly they are willing to risk anyone with the expertise also exploiting such backdoors is actually terrifying to me, even if that doesn't mean malice and just means incompetence.

This is a bit more political than economic but for an inside view on just how far along the Police State really is, check this astonishing symposium out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7cJG9j0NdY
 
Old 12-27-2019, 09:53 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Distributism seems like a possibly worthy goal but there is the sticky question of implementation by coercion...
There remains the very democratic method of voting with one's pocketbook. i.e, try as much as possible to buy from small local businesses, avoid Wal-Mart, etc.
 
Old 12-27-2019, 08:37 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogpatch View Post
There remains the very democratic method of voting with one's pocketbook. i.e, try as much as possible to buy from small local businesses, avoid Wal-Mart, etc.
 
Old 12-29-2019, 08:10 AM   #86
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ChuangTzu, you're the star of this thread, one fantastic, objective, well-thought response after the other, bravo.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, you will never see more evil than the evil you see in socialism, from the oppressors in power, and even the oppressed.

Communism, however, has never been tried in a large scale, and never will, it demands that neither money nor government exist, and that is simply not going to happen, it may have happened for small villages at some point, but applied to a country it's doomed to fail.
 
  


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