LinuxQuestions.org
Review your favorite Linux distribution.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 10-29-2019, 06:40 PM   #46
BW-userx
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Sep 2013
Location: Somewhere in my head.
Distribution: FreeBSD/Slackware-14.2+/ArcoLinux
Posts: 9,335

Rep: Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979

I do not even know who those people are, nor do I care. Chances are they don't know what about God. like others, and in 100,000 years you'll be doing more than that...

Last edited by BW-userx; 10-29-2019 at 06:41 PM.
 
Old 10-30-2019, 12:56 AM   #47
jsbjsb001
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Earth? I would say I hope so but I'm not so sure about that... I could just be a figment of your imagination too.
Distribution: Currently OpenMandriva. Previously openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,208

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659
ChuangTzu, I'm sorry you've got the impression that I was trying to be personal, or that "I've taken things personally". As neither of which is true. I was actually making the point that just because something isn't what would be described as "ultra-capitalism", or to use your term, "pure capitalism", this does not make it either "light/mild Socialism" nor does it make it flat out "Socialism". As you seemed to have missed the point I was making when I used "Unix-like OS's" as an example of what I was saying there. So to put it another way; Linux is a Unix-like system, the same as any one of the BSD's are widely considered be also be Unix-like systems, however, this does NOT mean OpenBSD is a, nor make OpenBSD a Linux distribution or vice versa. It also does NOT mean that Linux isn't a Unix-like system because OpenBSD, etc, etc, etc aren't Linux distributions, but they are still all Unix-like systems, as much as that does NOT make them UNIX itself - hence the word "like". So again, you're basically saying that because something isn't what you would call "pure Capitalism", then it's either "light/mild Socialism" or it's flat out "Socialism", again, you are incorrect, and I therefore very much beg to differ. So you've proven my point somewhat rather than disproved it.

Also, just because I might disagree with one's political beliefs, this does not mean I let that cloud my view of them as a person. I wouldn't be seen dead voting for our version of your Republican party (nor their opposition for that matter), but I've met and even with and payed rent to people that do support them. Those people were some of the most decent and respectful people I've ever known. So it doesn't say much if anything about one's character, it might just mean they have a different political view, but are otherwise decent people. I also don't disagree with you that the government has no place to be dictating how people live their lives. I don't agree that's what we can call "governing", and is indeed playing "nanny". So personally I don't need a "nanny" anymore than you do, so I therefore do agree with you that without good reason and merit, it's likely better left to the private sector to do, rather than government to be concerning itself about.

BW, while Christianity might be something that far more controlled in say a Communist country (like China being a good example), I'm not sure this is really all that relevant to the thread topic. So I very much agree with ChuangTzu's point in post #44. Therefore I think the The Faith & Religion mega Thread is far better for discussing religion than this thread. Because we all know what happens when a thread goes too far off-topic here. So please use the The Faith & Religion mega Thread for religious discussions, thanks.
 
Old 10-30-2019, 03:36 AM   #48
ondoho
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 12,746
Blog Entries: 9

Rep: Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467
Just like pure Communism, pure Capitalism is an idea, a construct, that some people apparently find worthy to strive for.
Like I wrote previously, I think there's a reason why practically every country in the world uses parts from "both sides". Finding a balance.
 
Old 10-30-2019, 04:54 PM   #49
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,481

Rep: Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
Just like pure Communism, pure Capitalism is an idea, a construct, that some people apparently find worthy to strive for.
Like I wrote previously, I think there's a reason why practically every country in the world uses parts from "both sides". Finding a balance.
Balance in all things is good. Nothing is absolute.
 
Old 10-30-2019, 04:55 PM   #50
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,481

Rep: Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
ChuangTzu, I'm sorry you've got the impression that I was trying to be personal, or that "I've taken things personally". As neither of which is true. I was actually making the point that just because something isn't what would be described as "ultra-capitalism", or to use your term, "pure capitalism", this does not make it either "light/mild Socialism" nor does it make it flat out "Socialism". As you seemed to have missed the point I was making when I used "Unix-like OS's" as an example of what I was saying there. So to put it another way; Linux is a Unix-like system, the same as any one of the BSD's are widely considered be also be Unix-like systems, however, this does NOT mean OpenBSD is a, nor make OpenBSD a Linux distribution or vice versa. It also does NOT mean that Linux isn't a Unix-like system because OpenBSD, etc, etc, etc aren't Linux distributions, but they are still all Unix-like systems, as much as that does NOT make them UNIX itself - hence the word "like". So again, you're basically saying that because something isn't what you would call "pure Capitalism", then it's either "light/mild Socialism" or it's flat out "Socialism", again, you are incorrect, and I therefore very much beg to differ. So you've proven my point somewhat rather than disproved it.

Also, just because I might disagree with one's political beliefs, this does not mean I let that cloud my view of them as a person. I wouldn't be seen dead voting for our version of your Republican party (nor their opposition for that matter), but I've met and even with and payed rent to people that do support them. Those people were some of the most decent and respectful people I've ever known. So it doesn't say much if anything about one's character, it might just mean they have a different political view, but are otherwise decent people. I also don't disagree with you that the government has no place to be dictating how people live their lives. I don't agree that's what we can call "governing", and is indeed playing "nanny". So personally I don't need a "nanny" anymore than you do, so I therefore do agree with you that without good reason and merit, it's likely better left to the private sector to do, rather than government to be concerning itself about.

BW, while Christianity might be something that far more controlled in say a Communist country (like China being a good example), I'm not sure this is really all that relevant to the thread topic. So I very much agree with ChuangTzu's point in post #44. Therefore I think the The Faith & Religion mega Thread is far better for discussing religion than this thread. Because we all know what happens when a thread goes too far off-topic here. So please use the The Faith & Religion mega Thread for religious discussions, thanks.
I think we agree more then disagree jsb.... Some differences may be cultural, some generational, however, I see more agreement then not. I'm not against any Government help, I think it should be limited and clearly defined... Set number of days, months etc... then cut off no exceptions, no excuses and mainly limited to the truly disabled, military, young and old. Working years---work, even if it means 3 or 4 jobs... There is great value in independence, not much to be gained in dependency.

PS: I am also against the idea of traditional retirement, preferring to work as long as you physically and mentally can even if its in your 90's+...but thats another topic.

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 10-30-2019 at 04:59 PM.
 
Old 11-01-2019, 08:27 AM   #51
jsbjsb001
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Earth? I would say I hope so but I'm not so sure about that... I could just be a figment of your imagination too.
Distribution: Currently OpenMandriva. Previously openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,208

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if we do agree on more than we might think, so think you could well have a point there.

I think we can agree that for one thing; government should be focused on actual governing, and doing what's best for the country it governs, and not trying to make people conform to someone else's moral beliefs, let alone someone else's religious beliefs. In other words; unless harm is being caused by something, and there's no merit for government to concern itself, then it shouldn't be something that the government should be involved with nor concerning itself with to begin with.

As far as welfare is concerned, I think there's a few things to be said; for one, it's not as black and white as "get a job, even if you have to get 2 or 3 jobs". To be clear; I do agree that sitting at home doing nothing isn't good for the person concerned anymore than it's good for anyone else. Because it isn't just about the money or independence, it's also about the person's own wellbeing, and mental health, and quite simply, having something constructive to do, to pass the day. I personally have had a job I didn't like one little bit, and was actually more depressing than having nothing to do, the money wasn't much better either. I honestly tried to just think of the money at the end of it - I just couldn't sustain it no matter how hard I tried. I also had another job after that, that I really didn't mind doing, it barely even felt like work. Sure the money wasn't exactly going to make me rich, but I didn't even need to try and just think of the money - I didn't mind the job one bit. But I don't agree with forcing people into work they absolutely despise. As it's just counter-productive, and inevitably that person will very likely end up quitting at some point anyway, which is just a waste of their time as well as the employers time and money. Either way, I know I can speak for myself in saying that if I don't have the interest in something, I'm hardly going to put much if any effort into it at all.

If you believe our federal government, most people who claim "the dole", aka "Newstart" here, are only on it for a short term anyway. Indeed it was only ever designed as a payment for people in-between jobs, not something to live off of for a long time.

I don't know how it is where you are, but here there's more people than there are jobs to take. I've spoken to people that were around in the 1960's, 70's, etc, and even they say; back then, you wanted a job, you could virtually walk into almost any place you liked and get a job, even start the same day. It wasn't hard at all back then, because there were more jobs than people to take them - so you really had to be doing something really wrong if you still couldn't get one back then. I can tell you now it's quite the opposite today, there's more people than jobs. Even if you do get hired, it's unlikely you'll start the same day. I remember applying for a laboring job, nothing special, just simple laboring, I can tell you that there was over a 100 others that also applied for the same job, and there was only one position on offer. I can also tell you, and again, I don't know what it's like where you are, but if you don't have your own transport here, that will immediately rule you out of at least half the jobs on offer (probably more than half if we are being honest). There's a number of other factors that can also reduce your chances even further. I can certainly tell you where I live, there isn't much in the way of IT jobs, you can basically forget about Linux jobs in the state I live in. You might have a better chance in Victoria or New South Wales, aka Melbourne or Sydney, but where I live, forget it if you don't have 10 years experience or whatever.

Even people that have worked all their life have found themselves out of work. For example, there used to be at least 3 car factories here, now Australia doesn't make any cars anymore. Ford, Holden, at least a few other car manufacturers have closed their factories here. Holden that used to have a factory in the state I live that closed a couple of years ago now employed 1000's of people, some had been working there for over 30 years, that's all they knew. Now they are having to retrain to do something else, hoping that they can find another job. The point is that the "new jobs" aren't completely replacing all of the lost jobs - more jobs have been lost, then have been created basically. So if you haven't got 30 years of work history behind you, but someone else going for the same job does, then it's likely you'll be the one that misses out.

So I do disagree that it's wise to set "cut off" times for people receiving the dole. The problem with that is, if those people that can't find work for whatever reason have no legal income, than the only option is to commit crime. There's a reason why the Nordic countries have pretty low crime rates compared to the US and even Australia, it's because they support their citizens regardless of whether they have money or not, but particularly the "have not's". Because why would you need to commit crime to survive if you can get legal money? Well, a lower crime rate, means not only a better society, it means less money having to be spent on police, prisons, health care, social services, etc, there's been study's that have proven this beyond any doubt.

There has been a very good example of what can happen when money comes before people quite recently here. The Royal Commission into Aged Care has published it's report and found that, the fact profit came before caring for the very people the aged care system was supposed to be caring for and was setup to care for. It's resulted in people dying, elderly people being abused, neglected, sitting in their own faeces for hours on end because of a lack of staff, and wasting away in their nursing homes. Because the "aged care providers" were far more interested in making a buck instead of providing proper care. It's been called a "national shame", not something you would expect of a so-called "developed country".

That's not just excuses, that's how it is. It's also what makes me wonder why on earth people would want to pay "people smugglers" to come here, for what? Because it's a "safer country" than wherever their coming from? All I can say is that it must be pretty bad wherever they are coming from/escaping. I'll tell you one more thing while we're at it; while legally speaking I might be an "Australian", but beyond that, I consider myself to be stateless. This country has changed, and not for the better either...
 
Old 11-01-2019, 08:34 AM   #52
BW-userx
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Sep 2013
Location: Somewhere in my head.
Distribution: FreeBSD/Slackware-14.2+/ArcoLinux
Posts: 9,335

Rep: Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979
Lets just start a whole new Governmental system, and call it New World Orders pls.
 
Old 11-01-2019, 08:38 AM   #53
hazel
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Harrow, UK
Distribution: LFS, AntiX, Slackware
Posts: 3,546
Blog Entries: 9

Rep: Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969Reputation: 1969
What jsb says about social care is true in the UK too. As to jobs, the only ones available are short term contracts in the "gig" economy, and they are set to disappear soon. When cars can drive themselves, who's going to need Uber drivers?
 
Old 11-01-2019, 04:05 PM   #54
JJTXM
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Oct 2019
Posts: 5

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Personal freedom is not possible without pure capitalism.
 
Old 11-01-2019, 05:23 PM   #55
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,481

Rep: Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511
hazel and jsb, nothing destroys jobs faster then Socialism/Communism. Also, typically the lack of jobs is the result of over regulation (another hallmark of Socialism), red tape, bureaucratic handouts, monopolies, etc... If you want to have a bad economy have the government get their tentacles involved in as many aspects of it as they can. Look at Japan, they've had stagnation for decades because of too much regulation and an almost impenetrable bureaucratic system.
 
Old 11-01-2019, 05:29 PM   #56
BW-userx
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Sep 2013
Location: Somewhere in my head.
Distribution: FreeBSD/Slackware-14.2+/ArcoLinux
Posts: 9,335

Rep: Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979Reputation: 1979
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJTXM View Post
Personal freedom is not possible without pure capitalism.
hahahaha spoken like a true capitalist.
now be the one that lives within this capitalistic ideology and have the job that does not provide as much money as some of the others. IE. lower class bracket, then experience the bigotry of capitalism. because you do not make enough money therefore you cannot be here to enjoy this "freedom" you cannot afford it. lalalala

There is no real equality within a capitalistic ideology

oh and it's called financial freedom and not personal freedom btw...

Last edited by BW-userx; 11-01-2019 at 05:42 PM.
 
Old 11-02-2019, 01:38 AM   #57
ondoho
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 12,746
Blog Entries: 9

Rep: Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467Reputation: 3467
The American Dream... every self-made millionaire... it's always built on the back of millions that did not make it - and never will.
It's the only way it can work, but many choose to ignore that and continue spreading the drivel that "that's the Freedom every American has..."
 
Old 11-02-2019, 04:25 AM   #58
jsbjsb001
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Earth? I would say I hope so but I'm not so sure about that... I could just be a figment of your imagination too.
Distribution: Currently OpenMandriva. Previously openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,208

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659Reputation: 1659
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJTXM View Post
Personal freedom is not possible without pure capitalism.
The above statement amounts to nothing more than right-wing dribble and nonsense. You are also confusing politics with economics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
hazel and jsb, nothing destroys jobs faster then Socialism/Communism. Also, typically the lack of jobs is the result of over regulation (another hallmark of Socialism), red tape, bureaucratic handouts, monopolies, etc... If you want to have a bad economy have the government get their tentacles involved in as many aspects of it as they can. Look at Japan, they've had stagnation for decades because of too much regulation and an almost impenetrable bureaucratic system.
Actually the (former) car industry here was heavily subsidized by the government (almost all levels of government), including tax breaks, and one by one they still disappeared. In Holden's case it was GM in Detroit that decided it was no longer viable. All of them were private companies, that were also privately operated. The fact is that it's far cheaper to make stuff in China for a number of reasons, like they don't have to pay their workers as much, they don't have to give them the same rights and working conditions, etc.

Your post also ignores the fact that the digital age has changed things quite fundamentally. The "bricks and mortar" business has far more overheads than the online business. An example of this is Australia Post; once upon a time, the bulk of their business was delivering the traditional letter, now it's mainly delivering parcels bought online - think "online businesses" and "email". They even invested in a new multimillion dollar processing facility for delivering parcels bought online.

Hazel also makes a very good point about secure, or should I say insecure work. A lot of the jobs on offer here are casual jobs, trying to find a permanent full time job is like looking for a needle in a haystack here - even if you have experience, even a lot of experience. Again, back in the day, you could get a job and more or less keep it for life, now, it's very unlikely you'll find a job and be able to keep it for life.

So what you're talking about is only a very small part of what is a far bigger picture, and therefore what I've said above is by far, a far bigger part of the reason for the current state of the job market/situation here. I suspect the same is far from limited to Australia, that said. So you're avoiding the real issues that therefore have very little to do with government or "Socialism", just to bolster your "pure capitalist" ideological agenda.

I must say, it's sad that both yourself, and the other poster quoted above can't look at an issue through non-political eyes. It speaks volumes about the world we live in, and really casts a lot of doubt on what you say about somehow being apolitical or some such...

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 11-02-2019 at 04:50 AM. Reason: ty0pS and spelling fixes
 
Old 11-02-2019, 07:36 AM   #59
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware = Main OpSys for decades while testing others to keep up
Posts: 2,483

Rep: Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528Reputation: 2528
Surely there are still in existence some people whose greed has no bounds, no prospect of ever being satiated, and whose sight is so myopic that no thing is ever enough and not only does other's suffering have no impact, some even delight in it since it is not enough to win but others must lose as well. One way to curb such greed and sociopathic behaviour is by legislation, but in a changing world, and one where wealth buys power to legislate it is a volatile, and tmporary condition, those measures rarely last and are soon side-stepped or overturned. I think the seeds of destruction or dissolution are actually built into the structure with such measures.

I don't think mankind will ever enjoy an enlightened society until it is recognized that poverty and lack of education afflict the wealthy as well since they must live in this world alongside the impoverished and ignorant. It may sound fanciful to ever imagine that it is even possible for mankind to ever rise to such an enlightened state to make the dream of "one for all AND all for one" collaboration become a reality in which I think real and compassionately realistic Capitalism can exist for long periods without requiring the "avalanche building" intervention of Law resulting in yet again devolving into one form of despotism and inequality under the law or another, but I imagine it could actually occur. That's what I meant by my broad "prediction" it could take a thousand or maybe one hundred thousand years, but I strongly suspect the technological breakthrough of cheap, renewable (or at least extremely long-lasting with extreme low overhead) energy is the key. It is even possible that the coming Climate Crisis may be a major catalyst in that regard.

Until then it seems we are doomed to bounce through the roller coaster of cycling between freedom and control. This idealistic overview is what fuels and colors every post I have ever made here at LQN, whether on Climate Change, Religion, Music, Politics, and even Linux. Yeah, I probably deserve the moniker "enorbet", as it should be obvious that while I try to keep my feet on the ground, I can't seem to get my head down from above the clouds.

Last edited by enorbet; 11-02-2019 at 07:40 AM.
 
Old 11-03-2019, 04:32 PM   #60
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,481

Rep: Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511Reputation: 1511
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
The American Dream... every self-made millionaire... it's always built on the back of millions that did not make it - and never will.
It's the only way it can work, but many choose to ignore that and continue spreading the drivel that "that's the Freedom every American has..."
Sorry, the American Dream (since you quoted it) is not that everyone will become a millionaire, it's that you can if you have the ability, the government will not prevent you from doing so. Sadly, since the USA has moved (over the last 100 years) towards Socialism and Oligarchism, this is becoming less true.
 
  


Reply

Tags
capitalism, means of production, socialism


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LXer: Too Much Choice, FOSS vs. Capitalism, Windows "Security", Mono LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 09-03-2009 12:40 AM
LXer: The problem with the computer industry under capitalism - Free Software the ans LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 10-06-2007 12:41 AM
LXer: Red Hat finds home in heart of capitalism LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 12-12-2006 11:54 PM
Linux is Capitalism? emereck Linux - General 3 05-21-2006 11:04 AM
RANT - so much for capitalism gui10 General 73 05-07-2002 02:28 PM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:46 AM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration