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Old 04-02-2024, 12:44 AM   #16
chrism01
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I think this is relevant here https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/...stingTrust.pdf .

Also
Quote:
“Justice must not only be done, but must also be seen to be done”. This dictum was laid down by Lord Hewart, the then Lord Chief Justice of England in the case of Rex v. Sussex Justices, [1924] 1 KB 256.
which applies just as much if not more so, to elections ...

For one, thing, on a practical level, people are more likely to go along with a decision if they believe it has been fairly arrived at, even if they disagree with it.
 
Old 04-02-2024, 12:56 AM   #17
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism01 View Post
For one, thing, on a practical level, people are more likely to go along with a decision if they believe it has been fairly arrived at, even if they disagree with it.
You've put your finger on the essential problem. There is no longer any general agreement on what the facts are, in any political dispute. Everyone now has their own facts, their own "truth". And some of the people who set themselves up as "fact checkers" have turned out to be the most dishonest of all. The entire political community has unravelled.
 
Old 04-02-2024, 12:17 PM   #18
yancek
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The electoral college wasn't designed to see that small states were not treated unfairly. Small states have a major advantage in both the electoral college and Congress, specifically the Senate. The article at the link below discusses the favoritism given to small states in the electoral college process.

https://archive3.fairvote.org/reform...toral-college/

It was basically written so that slave states would have more control as slaves (counted as three fifths of a person) and indentured servants were counted in the population statistics but could not vote and in most states, until around 1830, even white men who were not property owners could not vote and obviously slaves and women were not allowed to vote. So Virginia and other southern states were basically ruled by wealthy, white property owners.

The main problem with the electoral college is the way most states allocate electoral votes them with only Maine and Nebraska allocating in a democratic fashion.

Obviously, the voting system can always be improved but to date, despite millions of dollars spent by Trump supporters and millions more by the taxpayers for lawsuits which have never shown anything near proof, there is not evidence of fraud to the extent that would be required to overturn the election. People are free to believe in election fraud as well as the earth being flat and the Easter bunny but until some actual proof is shown...

Using non-proprietary software sound like a good idea and I think it should be extended so that non-proprietary software is not used by the IRS.

Last edited by yancek; 04-02-2024 at 12:31 PM.
 
Old 04-02-2024, 08:16 PM   #19
sundialsvcs
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To my way of thinking (hence the "OP"), elections are one of the most-important procedures in any "civilized(?)" nation. But, they are also extremely-messy, very human, procedures which cannot be entirely automated. Furthermore, by their very nature, "if anyone could 'game the system,' everyone would." When we are talking about "a contest that leads to the control of a [nation|state|district|city|community]," this is inevitable. (And, "it is a crime." And there are right now many people who are in prison for it.)

We can never create a system that can never be exploited, and we certainly cannot do it with "software alone." But, if we put our international heads together and looked at this problem, as "an entire data-handling process," I think that we – and by "we" I mean very many people, not just "programmers" – we could wind up in a much better situation than we have right now. This is not our first rodeo. We can do better.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 04-02-2024 at 08:18 PM.
 
Old 04-03-2024, 09:13 AM   #20
hitest
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sundialsvcs,

So I'm guessing you think the 2020 election was stolen.
A better election system is indeed a good thing.
 
Old 04-03-2024, 05:42 PM   #21
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
We can do better.
The first step is studying the current system to learn precisely how it works.

Once you know how it all works, then you can look for and assess any weaknesses you find.

You will find that many election processes are nowhere near as flimsy as you seem to think. There are robust checks and balances in place, particularly in your country.
 
Old 04-03-2024, 06:41 PM   #22
sundialsvcs
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There are experts throughout the world who know how to design robust, auditable, fraud-resistant processes. And the software and hardware which is part of them. This should be a formal international effort.
 
Old 04-03-2024, 09:28 PM   #23
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
This should be a formal international effort.
Why?

I cannot recall any elections in my country throughout my life time where the results were called into question. Not a single one... City, State, Federal. None of them.

Sometimes the party you vote for wins, sometimes they lose. That's democracy. Sometimes the result is controversial, but the process itself is never questioned... because there are checks and balances at every step of the process.

The real problem is that some people continue to believe fraud happened where investigators found that there was none (or perhaps there was but it wouldn't have had a material impact on the results). Results were audited and re-audited. Officials were questioned in court, and the transcripts of those trials are on public record.

With that said, there are problems with the system, of course: https://www.ajc.com/politics/georgia...MTI66MRF5B4EQ/
 
Old 04-04-2024, 07:58 AM   #24
yancek
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People are free to believe in whatever they want but there is no, absolutely no evidence that there was any corruption in the vote count in the 2020 presidential election. Despite the millions Trump and his supporters have spent, despite the millions the taxpayers have had to spend on court hearing on these frivolous suits, nothing has been proven. In fact, the alleged steal of the 2020 election is now referred to as "THE BIG LIE" which is what it is. Some of Trump's lawyers have been disbarred because of there actions. Of course, lawyers are allowed to lie as much as anyone else but not in any court. There is no argument that has been made in support of Trump's invalid claims that has been proven.

Rather than complaining about something that does not exist, how about some effort to raise the standard of elected officials so we get honest people instead whose only goal is to enrich themselves.
 
Old 04-04-2024, 08:12 AM   #25
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
There are experts throughout the world[...] This should be a formal international effort.
Oh, I'm sure the Americans currently worried about vote fraud will be very happy to see and use a system designed by the UN instead. They trust the experts so much! There definitely wouldn't be any fears about a world government takeover or anything like that.
 
  


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