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Old 03-30-2024, 05:46 PM   #1
sundialsvcs
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What the world(!) needs: a "truly 'open' election system


What I would now describe is truly an international need, which should attract the world's attention.

What we right now (desperately ...) need is: a truly 'open' election system."

This would include, for example:
  1. Open-source software, carefully managed and curated.
  2. Open hardware, for which no "patent" protection is claimed, or can be claimed.
  3. Open procedures for accurately managing elections "in the field."
  4. Open procedures, also, for the entire data-capture, tabulation, and auditing procedures. And, for proving that they were actually followed.
  5. Maximum – and correct – exploitation of data-encryption and all other "industry 'best practices.'"
  6. Operating-system independence.
  7. Recommendations for appropriate legal policies and laws to be implemented by legislatures at various levels – with objective justifications for the same, based on the foregoing.
Furthermore: throughout the world, there have been many other initiatives to institute things very similar to this already. For example, in the USA, the "HIPAA" act. Plenty of other examples from the world of finance. This is therefore, "not 'entirely-unexplored' legislative territory."

But this initiative would be slightly different since only the software, the hardware, and the procedures outlined would be accepted. Upon acceptance, "proprietary vendors" such as "Dominion" would find themselves completely locked-out ... and you can be damned sure that they would fight this tooth-and-nail.

Why do we need this? Because, throughout the world, we repeatedly see that today we have no objective reason for "confidence." And, in terms of both world and domestic peace and otherwise, maybe there is nothing in this world more important than "restoring this confidence."

I would also interject: "it is the process, itself" that is the flaw ... and therefore, that is the focus. Elsewhere in our industry, we have plenty of [international ...] experience in "designing and constructing robust and fraud-resistant (overall ...) processes." Let us now apply that expertise to design "just one more." This being: "the most important one [in the world]."

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 03-30-2024 at 05:52 PM.
 
Old 03-30-2024, 06:01 PM   #2
jefro
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You can't do a write in anymore where I'm at. They used to use QNX stations and argued with me when I complained about security.

That used to be totally open and fair.

Last edited by jefro; 03-30-2024 at 06:02 PM.
 
Old 03-31-2024, 12:49 AM   #3
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I wouldn't trust a voting machine even if it ran Linux. In this country we use ballot boxes.
 
Old 03-31-2024, 12:59 AM   #4
enorbet
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Not that your proposals lack merit, they don't really. It certainly can't hurt to explore if it's done right. However, isn't it so, sundialsvcs, that you think the 2020 election was stolen despite the examinations by many, even many of Trump's appointees, not to mention Fox News successfully sued for just shy of a Billion Dollars (roughly $790,000,000.00) for repeating the lie for months. I mean do you really think they'd pay that if there was even a wisp of some dubious evidence they told the truth supporting the whole "Stop the Steal" scam?
 
Old 03-31-2024, 07:14 AM   #5
sundialsvcs
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I'm not going to discuss "whether the 2020 election was stolen." What's important is that millions of people – including me, BTW – believe that it was. (And 2022, as well. There have been others, such as Bush v. Gore.) And it always comes down to, "the technology used." Including things like: "hanging chads."

Even this belief is unacceptable for an election system. "It's not the votes that count – it's who (and what ...) counts the votes."

The hardware+software technology offered by, for example, Dominion Systems is completely proprietary. And, various forensic studies have demonstrated that it is insecure.

I submit that the only way to effectively counter this belief is to construct "a complete election toolchain" that is entirely open. From the design and printing of the ballots to the election-day mechanics and procedures to the final tabulation and auditing. It is truly an international concern because (supposedly ...) "everybody votes." So, the techniques and the technology must be "beyond reproach." We can do this: we have already done similar things before.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 03-31-2024 at 07:18 AM.
 
Old 03-31-2024, 09:38 AM   #6
hitest
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I think it would be a grand idea if the US amended the constitution and eliminated the electoral college. Then who ever gets the most votes wins.

Back on topic. I have no problem with an open election system.
 
Old 03-31-2024, 10:01 AM   #7
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitest View Post
I think it would be a grand idea if the US amended the constitution and eliminated the electoral college. Then who ever gets the most votes wins.
I think the reason the founding fathers didn't want to do it that way is that it would allow the big cities to gang up and routinely outvote the rest of the country. The USA was originally conceived as a republic of independent-minded small farmers and it was considered very important that these people were not rendered politically impotent simply by the fact that they were more thinly spread.

I noticed after the last election (and the one before it, when the Democrats likewise won the overall popular vote) that the voting map of the USA had two broad blue stripes down the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, where all the big cities are, and the area between them was solidly red. The rather complicated electoral college voting system gives these "flyover states" a fairer deal.
 
Old 03-31-2024, 01:54 PM   #8
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
I'm not going to discuss "whether the 2020 election was stolen." What's important is that millions of people – including me, BTW – believe that it was.
That's some real honesty.
 
Old 03-31-2024, 02:03 PM   #9
enorbet
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Given the fervor of MAGA statements threateniong Civil War based on such beliefs, I'd think with such severe consequences, one would want real, objective proof, in a court of Law not backyard hearsay.
 
Old 03-31-2024, 04:13 PM   #10
hitest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
That's some real honesty.
Agreed! There was no substantial evidence of fraud in the 2020 election. Even the people who Trump hired could find no evidence of fraud. It is generally accepted that the 2020 US election was an open and honest representation of the will of the people. Most presidential candidates gracefully concede defeat for the good of democracy. Candidate Gore conceded defeat after a prolonged election; he accepted the decision of the SCOTUS. However, the hardcore MAGA base will never accept reality.
Trump ignored the will of the people; he plotted and initiated a failed insurrection.
 
Old 04-01-2024, 01:45 PM   #11
sundialsvcs
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@hitest: You are entitled to your opinions, even though there are millions who disagree. Nevertheless, you are avoiding my essential point.

"An election" is a massive data-handling process, which is subject to (and deserving of ...) "scrutiny, monitoring, and suspicion(!)" more than any other process which we undertake. Precisely because – due to the inherent nature of what is being done and what it means – "lots of people want to tamper with it."

If previous elections had been performed using the hardware/software/manual-process infrastructure that I am now describing, many of these "opinions" and the associated "disagreements" would not have occurred, because there would be very robust processes to prevent them.. For instance, it would not have been possible to shove the same set of ballots through a scanner multiple times and have them be counted. The ballots themselves would be "accountable." Likewise, the [anonymous ...] voters, and their right to vote, and that they voted only once. And so on and on and on.

My point is this: "You, as a voter, are maybe 'a little bit too confident and outspoken'" that absolutely nothing is wrong. Such that you vilify others – like me – who suggest that something is wrong. But: "why is there 'room for doubt?'" Because of the [entire ...] process.

Apply your professional training and look at the entire scheme, start to finish. Production of ballots. (Some were misprinted, and the equipment couldn't handle 'misprinted' ballots.) Distribution. Polling-place operations. Transport to counting centers. "Uniqueness and data-integrity." Tabulation procedures. Auditability. Reliance on "proprietary, closed-source" systems. Operating-system environments. The list goes on and on, and it is full of holes. This is an awful "data-handling infrastructure." Full of need for improvement. Now, let the world's best hardware and software minds be focused on solving this problem, as best we can, "permanently."

I am not talking about any previous election. I am talking that the present "overall(!) process system" ... sucks. We can do better. Let's do it.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 04-01-2024 at 01:48 PM.
 
Old 04-01-2024, 02:39 PM   #12
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Attorney General in AZ says no when asked if AZ was iffy on election. He investigated it thoroughly. Cuz his constituents told him to do so.

As far as certain folks beliefs on this.

I guess if Donald said Angels or God stole the elections. Which a bunch of people believe in?
I'd like to see the results of that investigation.
 
Old 04-01-2024, 03:56 PM   #13
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All elections in the US are basically local i.e. run by the counties all 3069. The individual states administer the elections through their own election laws. Electronic voting machines are certified by the state and federal governments but the overall policies and security for electronic voting are set by the state. The design of paper and mail in ballots are up to the States as well as how they are certified and counted.

There is already an open source voting machine company called VotingWorks. If your State / County needs newer equipment write to them and suggest VotingWorks.
 
Old 04-01-2024, 05:25 PM   #14
hitest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
@hitest: You are entitled to your opinions, even though there are millions who disagree.
Thank you. Do you think the 2020 election was stolen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
I am not talking about any previous election. I am talking that the present "overall(!) process system" ... sucks. We can do better. Let's do it.
No argument from me. Agreed. There's always room for improvement in the election process.
 
Old 04-01-2024, 07:07 PM   #15
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We've had election fraud here in the past: things like 20 postal votes from addresses with only 5 residents, people going to polling stations to vote more than once. But that's been changed, you have to show some proof of identity now. I don't think electronic voting could be foolproof - backdoors, etc?
 
  


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