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Old 02-14-2018, 07:19 AM   #16
sundialsvcs
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Fair enough.

This has become a very big fraud, and an obviously international one. There are deep pockets behind it, obviously including the bankers and financiers whom it is said are "afraid of" this "new thing." They know that their losses, when they come, can simply be put into the banking subsidiary to be bailed-out, thereby turning all those losses into profits ... in Dollars.

I'm not really sure how successful this swindle is turning out to be. We have the usual "instant millionaires," and most of them are suitably-ordinary people. And I surmise that they've sold a number of computing machines. But more than anything I'm suspicious of what they are saying, and of the amount of "money" they claim to be throwing about. One of the principles of a con-game is to persuade everyone that everyone-else is doing it and that they'd better hurry up and join the party. But I'm not sure that as many people have actually joined the party as they claim. The swindle has already been moved to the point in its lifetime where it really doesn't matter what the object is it could just as well be ... a tulip.
 
Old 02-14-2018, 10:28 AM   #17
enorbet
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I can't be certain but it seems like you didn't follow the link and read that article, sundial ol' buddy. Banks are cautious but hardly afraid. The more forward looking ones are looking into it rather feverishly, and wisely I might add. Take a look at the service charge costs an individual or a business currently incurs when buying something in any other country. It is charted in the article and when you add on top of that that it costs considerable time, and as the old adage correctly states "Time is Money" then you will see that while there are scams around crypto as there is around anything of any value, it is a very small percentage of the motivating forces and interest.

Part of my interest in following this phenomenon is that little ol' me experienced rather severe examples of this simply paying rent. I wanted to automatically pay my rent every month and not have to think about it or take any time to act on it which is one of the advantages of the Internet and automation of recurring events. My bank charges extra to do an instantaneous direct electronic transfer but would and did send a physical check through snail mail to the lessee's bank tying up personnel time on both ends for at least many minutes if not hours and taking almost a week to complete the transfer payment, which of course tied up several postal employees time in the handling. The receiving bank, Bank of America no less, required the check be sent, not to the nearest branch in the same state that both of our accounts are located in but 5 states away to their single "clearing house" branch and from there it was snail mailed back to this state.

Does that make any sense to you or anybody? It not only cost me, but also the payee, both banks and at least three branches, and the US Govt both time and money. All of that could have taken maybe 3 minutes to type into a terminal, 3 more minutes to log it in at the very branch, literally from my account to his, , involving two people at the most, and DONE! That may have been fine when there were no computers and no internet but we are talking almost 40 years later we are using this inefficient ancient technology. It's akin to using an oar to manually spin the propeller on an outboard motor boat. That is why there is a vacuum that must and will be filled.

Since you are involved in software development I'm sure you are aware of the constraints of legacy and since you are something of a History buff you likely know why our automobiles and trucks have the same axle track and how The Roman Empire, and those that built on it, are responsible for that constraint. Legacy is very often an "millstone around the neck" and must be shed in expedient time or we drown. That Time for Money seems to be Now.

Last edited by enorbet; 02-14-2018 at 10:32 AM.
 
Old 02-14-2018, 10:50 AM   #18
cwizardone
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i looked into this the other day and you can use software, windows based, that allows your computer to be used for "mining." This requires a modern multi-core CPU and a high-end graphics card, something based on a Nvidia 1080 GPU or better.
The net return to the computer owner, after the cost of electricity? Somewhere between two and three dollars U.S., a month. That might have been a week.
Hardly worth it, regardless

Last edited by cwizardone; 02-14-2018 at 10:51 AM.
 
Old 02-14-2018, 11:20 AM   #19
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I wanted to automatically pay my rent every month and not have to think about it or take any time to act on it which is one of the advantages of the Internet and automation of recurring events. My bank charges extra to do an instantaneous direct electronic transfer
That's weird. British banks don't charge for monthly direct debits or standing orders. For one-off payments, the rules are different. BACS is free but not instantaneous. A CHAPS payment is instantaneous but costs you.
 
Old 02-14-2018, 11:58 AM   #20
cwizardone
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Depends on the bank. Neither of the two financial institution I use in the U.S. charge for such transactions.
 
Old 02-14-2018, 01:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Fair enough.

This has become a very big fraud, and an obviously international one. There are deep pockets behind it, obviously including the bankers and financiers whom it is said are "afraid of" this "new thing." They know that their losses, when they come, can simply be put into the banking subsidiary to be bailed-out, thereby turning all those losses into profits ... in Dollars.

I'm not really sure how successful this swindle is turning out to be. We have the usual "instant millionaires," and most of them are suitably-ordinary people. And I surmise that they've sold a number of computing machines. But more than anything I'm suspicious of what they are saying, and of the amount of "money" they claim to be throwing about. One of the principles of a con-game is to persuade everyone that everyone-else is doing it and that they'd better hurry up and join the party. But I'm not sure that as many people have actually joined the party as they claim. The swindle has already been moved to the point in its lifetime where it really doesn't matter what the object is it could just as well be ... a tulip.
To me, at least, Bitcoin is either Diamond or Tulip.
Sure, the usual sub-humans try to make money with no thought to the curency but there are plenty of people using it who just use it.
 
Old 02-14-2018, 10:48 PM   #22
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
That's weird. British banks don't charge for monthly direct debits or standing orders. For one-off payments, the rules are different. BACS is free but not instantaneous. A CHAPS payment is instantaneous but costs you.
Interesting response to my anecdotal tale which I told to supplement the article I linked since it has happened to me more than once. I play an online game whose servers and corporate offices are in London and about a dozen times now over 6 or 7 years they offer items that sell for under $100.00 USD and for all but the last year any purchase I tried to make via two factor approved credit card purchase resulted in a hold on the payment until I called the bank. On at least 10 calls I told the bank each time that I had done business with them before and planned to again in the future so why tie up resources to block such a piddly little purchase each time. Again, costly to me and the bank and at the very least a pita for the recipient.

Such occurrences are graphed out in the article that make business transactions bulky, slow and inefficient, which is why enterprise including banking are more concerned and interested rather than afraid . Can you, hazel, or anyone else not living in the US comment on their experiences in a reverse buy condition? or better, on a commercial rather than personal level as mentioned in the article? I'd like to know more to confirm or deny what is reported in the article at various levels.
 
Old 02-15-2018, 01:46 AM   #23
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Ah, we're talking international transfers here! Yes, they would charge for that.
 
Old 02-15-2018, 07:08 AM   #24
sundialsvcs
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"Money transfers" are a specific area where block-chain tokens (BCTs) will be an especially big win, when it becomes computationally inexpensive to produce them. One of the reasons why you pay fees to do international transfers is the number of entities and computers and networks that right-now must be involved. The various players really can't act independently – they have to call the mother-ship in real time, and sometimes money disappears, not due to crime but simply to error. BCTs would provide a huge improvement on this status quo, but they have to be cheap. It has to be the exact-opposite of "rarity," or using-up the entire output of an electric power plant. We'll need billions of 'em, every day. And some day, we'll have them.

It took a little while to hit upon a practical system for "public-key cryptography," too. BCTs will be just as big or bigger. And, they'll be anything but "rare." There are thousands of ways that we can use numbers like these – transfers, credit cards, gift cards, back-end settlement processes, invoicing, purchase orders ...

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 02-15-2018 at 07:11 AM.
 
  


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