LinuxQuestions.org
Latest LQ Deal: Linux Power User Bundle
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 10-11-2017, 10:49 PM   #16
rokytnji
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Waaaaay out West Texas
Distribution: AntiX 17 , ChromeOS
Posts: 5,223
Blog Entries: 20

Rep: Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489

Well, on the other hand. You have LULAC and NAACP and other clubs with their own agendas. I don't agree with reverse racism either. But guess what? I live in it.

I had a talk with my wife. A epiphany of sorts. I told her that the overpass on I20 . Which was sufficient for this town before the oil boom. Now needs to be enlarged for all the water tanker trucks backing up traffic for a mile on our main drag . Because of the oil boom.

I then told her. I figure the EU socialistic economy was fine and dandy. Because services were capable of handling the population paying into socialism to give them their benefits they paid into.

Then immigration kicked in. With benefits being strained and no more money coming in. People get upset. Strife happens.

Same same here in the USA. So everyone is pssed at everyone.

Quote:
kneeee kneeeick kneeee knneee swamp

Last edited by rokytnji; 10-11-2017 at 10:52 PM.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 08:19 AM   #17
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware has beern Main OpSys for decades while testing others to keep up
Posts: 1,517

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466
rokytnji, you've hit on an important, maybe even THE main component of SocioPolitical structure - the Economy. It's hard to be principled, let alone magnanimous, when your children are starving. All over the world as economies adjust to the transition to a new, and as of yet uncomfortable, balance between the old industrial revolution to the new revolution loosely known as IT, frantic adjustments and positioning is taking place to establish a new pecking order. Not only do we have economic difficulties everywhere somewhat akin to Germany under the Weimar Republic but we have an "Old Guard, Business As Usual" crowd still in positions of great power who keep plying the same old ways, many of which don't apply, or apply as well, in the New Economy based on Information.

Hopefully this time we don't require killing off 3% of the world population to achieve any manner of stability, let alone progress. Hopefully enough of us have learned that cooperation and collaboration is way better than warfare to avoid such an inestimable loss.

I actually think Shakespeare was maybe "a half bubble off plumb" when he said "The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones" I think that just like the Butterfly Effect and Chaos Theory everything lives on, interacting with everything else, swinging back and forth, though evil is often more visible as well as somewhat subjective
 
Old 10-12-2017, 08:59 AM   #18
sundialsvcs
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 8,674
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021
The USA is very proud of its gift from the French – the Statue of Liberty – and of the poem, "The New Colossus," that someone wrote to commemorate it. But they didn't fully appreciate what was meant by all those "masses yearning to breathe free."

They were a cheap source of factory labor, unlikely to oppose anything they were told to do for at least a generation.

Many were put under conditions of "indentured servitude," where they were "sponsored" on their journey in exchange for several years of captive labor for their "sponsoring" employer.

Sound familiar? Well, of course it should, because the US's recently-coined "non-immigrant visa" is "an indenture," even though the 13th Amendment specifically outlaws the practice.

The entire concept of the European Union was, I think, centered much more around labor than trade. There are sources of "cheap people" in Europe who would just love to live in London, and, for a time, Great Britain was told that they had no choice but to accept them. Finally, they wised up. The USA is only barely-beginning to do so. Over the next few years, I am quite sure that we will see the EU re-inventing itself, but "kicking and screaming."

Immigration is closely tied to the human precept of "other-ness," with all of the sometimes-awful things that this can imply. But, even at the very best, it is ripe for exploitation and (I think ...) is therefore usually exploited.

Even though immigration is fundamentally important, I submit that a brash, obnoxious, loud-mouthed American President "is really on to something" when he says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Oaf:
"<<My_Country>> First™, and we expect all other countries to do the same."
He's right. If "your government" is not pitching for "you, first," then who-the-hell is pitching for you, and why isn't it "your government?" Isn't that what governments are for? If every country did put its own countrymen first, instead of looking to exploit them in the name of labor and manufacturing, we would wind up with: much better treaties (because the negotiators would be bound to find "win/win, if any," and many treaties just wouldn't get made); much better immigration policies (and treatment of immigrants); and in all respects a much stronger and more-resilient international economy. If you content yourself with a race to the bottom, "the bottom" is exactly where you'll wind up. (Just ask the Prodigal Son...)

(You really should read Trump's The Art of the Deal, written many years ago in the context of real estate.) Not every "deal" is a deal worth doing, and many really-bad deals are routinely proposed! Over the last thirty years or so, I think that many nations got themselves into some really bad deals, paying a terrible price while their leaders said, "Oh, what a Good Boy am I!" And many people who left their homes and travelled thousands of miles to live in a foreign land, discovered after they got there that they'd only been screwed.)

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-12-2017 at 09:03 AM.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 11:25 AM   #19
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware has beern Main OpSys for decades while testing others to keep up
Posts: 1,517

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466
Ahhh I am finally starting to get what at first glance seemed like a contradiction namely the South "rising again" and Russia as friend.

It seems many of the leaders of a wide variety of alt-right groups either agree with and applaud Putin's heavy-handed ant-globalist, nationalist position or actively support it. Some have strong ties with Russia. A list of those leaders includes Richard Spencer, Matthew Heimbach, Jared Taylor, and David Duke. All of them have strong ties to Russian Alexander Dugin, an influential, and unapologetically Fascist political analyst whose end game is hastening "End Times" with "all out war". Apparently more important than skin color is religion combined with what they see as race since Jews and Muslims are somewhat higher on the list than the "smaller fish" of Hispanics and African-Americans. All of them with the possible exception of Dugin are strong Trump supporters.

Apparently once the philosophy and agenda of Naziism is divorced from "Deutschland Uber Alles" the remaining bits (anti-glopbalism, anti-liberal, anti-semitic, anti-"sex perversion", anti-free press, pro-Stalin, pro-state religion in all aspects of life and law, etc etc etc) Russians so disposed find a moderately comfortable niche with American Neo-Nazis and other so-called alt-right groups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehill.com
Moscow’s aim is widely viewed as exploiting divides and sowing distrust of democratic institutions, the latter a conclusion reached by the U.S. intelligence community in its initial investigation of Russia’s interference in the presidential election, including overt efforts to push propaganda
That push is a very real army of professional (hired for pay) hackers and trolls who usually disguise their profiles as "Nebraska housewife" etc and who seek to incite chaos and revulsion on websites, especially American websites, while others promote alt-right views, the commonality with modern Russia (or the more important aspects of it) and support for Trump. They are proven to have influenced numerous elections here in the US and in some other countries.

There is much, much more I am discovering and I think it bears considerable alertness if not scrutiny. It now makes sense why Trump did not come out against those in Charlottesville responsible for beatings and one death. They have considerable in common, politically, even if he wouldn't be caught dead with many of these individuals in public or private in the real world.

Last edited by enorbet; 10-12-2017 at 11:27 AM.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 12:15 PM   #20
sundialsvcs
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 8,674
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021
But be careful, enorbet, that you(!) do not stray into "conspiracy theory" land! There is always hate in this world, but hate does not have to succeed. Hate-mongers are not invincible. Nor is the general public "secretly in support of them," despite what they might say.

Likewise, anyone can call himself a "Trump supporter," and anyone else can then point to something that Mr. Trump <did | did_not> do on some particular occasion and cry out, "Ah, ha!" . . .

. . . and it actually doesn't mean a damned thing.

There are plenty of people (and in the US South, too, by the way ...) who are quite determined that hate-crime (and hate-group domestic terrorism) will never succeed. I think that this is why so many people in Charlottesville expressed rightful outrage that the incident was allowed to happen in their town, despite official attempts to prevent it. Although hate-mongers will spew their filth if given the chance, there are plenty who want nothing to do with it, ever again, and who now wish to give them no quarter.

Also, I firmly believe that "Russia" is getting far, far too much credit these days – if only because, when the USA wants a bugaboo, they inevitably(!) pick Russia!

For instance, when "election hacks" came out, only the State of Colorado went on-the-books showing how easily the validity of election results can be supported, using simple statistical quality-control techniques that everyone learned in school, i-f a corroborating paper-trail exists. Virtually no one seems to be talking about paperless voting machines, which leave no such trail and which therefore cannot be objectively audited. But the supposed power of Russia ... no other nation need apply, nor anyone within the USA ... to "influence" (sic) the Election That Hillary Lost™ might never come to an end. And if some leader or official wants to trot out bigotry and racism (and worse), which nation is it gonna be? You got it: Russia.

Isn't that cold-war stereotype getting a whole lot "long in the tooth" by now?

Of course people try to manipulate social media. (Media outlets try to manipulate their own product, too!) Once again, it doesn't have to be a government doing it, and among all governments it doesn't have to be ... "Russia, of course.™" Like any other thing that you "choose to consume," you just have to keep your head on about whatever it is you're reading or seeing. The people who strive to manipulate social media also are not invincible, nor are they particularly invisible.

Fortunately, I find that actual people are a great deal more complex, and therefore interesting, than "the media" paints them to be.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-12-2017 at 12:31 PM.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 02:21 PM   #21
rokytnji
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Waaaaay out West Texas
Distribution: AntiX 17 , ChromeOS
Posts: 5,223
Blog Entries: 20

Rep: Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489Reputation: 2489
Never mind. I should stay away from my computers sometimes.

Last edited by rokytnji; 10-13-2017 at 08:51 AM. Reason: spelling
 
Old 10-13-2017, 05:25 AM   #22
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware has beern Main OpSys for decades while testing others to keep up
Posts: 1,517

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466
I should think by now, sundialsvcs, you would know that I am extremely adverse to jumping to any manner of conclusion. I'm more of a "slow 'n steady" kinda guy

I'm not saying anything remotely like the alt-right is trump's 5th Column, gestapo in the making. All I can conclude so far is that the alt-right sees him as kindred spirit (takes one to know one?) and are emboldened by it. That's not a leap at all since they have stated exactly that.

Last edited by enorbet; 10-13-2017 at 05:28 AM.
 
Old 10-13-2017, 06:54 AM   #23
hazel
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Harrow, UK
Distribution: Debian, Crux, LFS, AntiX, NuTyX
Posts: 1,478
Blog Entries: 2

Rep: Reputation: 627Reputation: 627Reputation: 627Reputation: 627Reputation: 627Reputation: 627
A lot of people seem to forget that Russia is no longer a communist country. In fact, it is a pretty anti-communist one. The Russian Orthodox Church is hugely powerful, there are plenty of rich oligarchs, and the last Tsar is on course to be canonised!

It's true that Putin admires Stalin, but he admires him for making Russia great again, not for his economic or social policies.

So what is contradictory about right-wing bigots admiring the new Russia?
 
Old 10-13-2017, 11:04 AM   #24
sundialsvcs
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 8,674
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021Reputation: 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I should think by now, sundialsvcs, you would know that I am extremely adverse to jumping to any manner of conclusion. I'm more of a "slow 'n steady" kinda guy

I'm not saying anything remotely like the alt-right is trump's 5th Column, gestapo in the making. All I can conclude so far is that the alt-right sees him as kindred spirit (takes one to know one?) and are emboldened by it. That's not a leap at all since they have stated exactly that.
Yes, I know that about you, my virtual friend and Worthy Adversary.

I wouldn't call these clowns "Alt Right" or "Alt Anything." They are domestic terrorists who deserve to be given nothing. The Germans, I think, had the right idea in saying that "certain forms of demonstration are not permitted, period." Notwithstanding the US Constitution's protection of "peaceable assembly, freedom of speech" and so on as granted to the individual, there are cases where "what you say and specifically how you say it" becomes a public assault.

Anyone can see in Donald Trump (or anyone else) a "kindred spirit," and can try to present the notion that "he is (secretly) one of us." And, given that a lot of people right now don't know what he is ... that might get a certain amount of traction. (And his constantly shooting off his mouth before shoving his shoes into it general lack of candor doesn't help much.) But I don't believe a word of it.

Strange as it may seem, I think that Donald Trump cares very passionately about his job, and his role in American government. I think that he is "the real deal." I think he is repelled by these evils, as anyone should be, whether or not he "says the perfectly-right thing at the perfectly-right time," which he usually does not.
 
Old 10-13-2017, 01:21 PM   #25
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware has beern Main OpSys for decades while testing others to keep up
Posts: 1,517

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466Reputation: 1466
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel
A lot of people seem to forget that Russia is no longer a communist country. In fact, it is a pretty anti-communist one. The Russian Orthodox Church is hugely powerful, there are plenty of rich oligarchs, and the last Tsar is on course to be canonised!

It's true that Putin admires Stalin, but he admires him for making Russia great again, not for his economic or social policies.

So what is contradictory about right-wing bigots admiring the new Russia?

I think those are good points and a fair question, Hazel. It may be an unconscious bias of mine but in my experience much of people's views on the world at large are formed early, at home, and are not easily moderated. Like the old adage states, "Children of alcoholics tend to be alcoholics or teetotalers".

In 1972 I was managing a Music Store and we had huge "blowouts" on George Washington's Birthday every year but that year an elderly (elderly to me at the time) lady came in wanting to see a drum set we had on a huge holiday discount. She was nearly giddy at the prospect of being able to afford a whole, brand new drum kit for her husband.... that is until she learned they were made in Japan. She was terribly crestfallen but said she couldn't possibly buy them because her husband, who fought against the Japanese, and her 25 year old Son, who obviously didn't, would never forgive her for buying anything known to be made by "them", even nearly 30 years later.

As I stated above I am quite certain that many in the alt-right were brought up in families that equate Russians with "Godless Commies" who tried to place nuclear ICBMs just offshore from the Homeland. As you can see, my experience led me to default to the idea that such people would not be easily turned 180 degrees, no matter what the "Liberal News" says. So that made me slow to come to the conclusion this was something of a "shoe in". It likely has much to do with "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" concept but resolving that was the reason I started this thread.

Last edited by enorbet; 10-13-2017 at 01:23 PM.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Odd situation with raid10 array, odd number of drives, and it took, can't regrow now Red Squirrel Linux - Software 9 08-08-2014 03:15 PM
Very odd cain mosni LinuxQuestions.org Member Intro 1 07-09-2013 05:55 AM
ssh wrinkle in backup script bluethundr Linux - Newbie 1 10-07-2010 01:32 PM
'nudder "Wrinkle"... :-( BuckNekkid Linux - Newbie 5 05-18-2010 07:50 AM
LXer: Microsoft's latest open-source release catches a wrinkle LXer Syndicated Linux News 1 04-03-2009 02:06 PM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:16 PM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration