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Old 06-10-2017, 01:15 AM   #61
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
I asked why they would conspire in this.
There are many nations with the capability to disprove the claims yet they continue not to do so. Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Why bother?
only someone who has the wrong notion about the time of the cold war could ask something like this.
having proof that the americans actually didn't land on the moon (and i'll say it again, i do not buy into this theory) would have been avery good thing for the whole Eastern Bloc and China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
At the time ... and, I was there ... I'm not so sure. Remember, at that time, "the world was a big place, and each government controlled its citizen's perspectives of everyone else, everywhere else." There was no way for <<The Russians>> even to communicate with the American people, let alone "directly."
it wasn't all black'n'white like that.
real information did flow; even directly, but maybe more so through (other countries') newspapers, radio, TV, contact to relatives and friends living in the west, business relations (i know that from 1st hand) etc.
keep in mind that in europe, East and West were geographically very, very close.

and even soviet propaganda needed to have some truth in it, they couldn't just invent stuff, because information did travel, people would have just laughed at mere fabrications (again something i know 1st hand).
 
Old 06-10-2017, 07:03 AM   #62
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Funny how popular the whole moon theory is.

Here in Vietnam, the "boat incident" is common knowledge. Thats the proven and verified false flag operation that the US used to enter the "Amerikan War" as its called here. IT was covered up for about 20 years before being outed.

WMDs in Iraq is another.

Assan Using chemical weapons. As goes the pattern, no investigations required. Very probable as there's 0 residue at the air base where the accusers say it was stored.

And not to forget the evil Russians. Oh my God! Russians under the bed! In my soup!

Is hacking the world while using false flags to blame others in the code a conspiracy? Or just normal CIA business... or both? Proven.

I think Stephen Hawkings is right. Amerika can't keep a secret and thats the best reason for throwing the moon conspiracy to the wind. Somebody woulda blabbed.

Great book available for studying the pitfalls of unscientific speculation is "The Super Sargasso Sea". The bulk was written by a man convinced that everything that fell from the sky came from the same place. An ocean in the upper atmosphere. (Written in the late 1800s).
His method was to then gather data to support his argument and the data was staggering for a late 19th century book. Half of the book was listings of real verified fish, rocks and all kinds of stuff falling from the skies. The rest mostly speculation on origin.
The copy I read was a special 1950s reprint of the 1890s book with a fresh forward pointing out the main text as a study of bad science as opposed to the true scientific method of simply seeking the truth wherever it leads. In other words, a perfect example of how not to study something intended for university students of the time.

Another great example from more modern times is a book I read on the "Pyramids on Mars". Hilarious and only a couple decades old. I could put the same forward as above verbatim on it. Someone should.

Gotta love a good story.
 
Old 06-10-2017, 07:39 AM   #63
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I am now reminded of another conspiracy theory -- that the USA supplied arms to the Taliban under their horrendously stupid "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" doctrin.
Had the US government not been full of imbeciles a few decades ago we wouldn't have "Islamic State"+ now.

+I call then something else which has to do with sexual activity with porcine mammals but that kind of language isn't allowed on this site.
 
Old 06-10-2017, 08:35 AM   #64
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How about the conspiracy that wherever you'd happen to be born makes that the best sports team and so forth...
 
Old 06-10-2017, 01:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkester View Post
I think Stephen Hawkings is right. Amerika can't keep a secret and thats the best reason for throwing the moon conspiracy to the wind. Somebody woulda blabbed.
While I absolutely agree that "somebody woulda blabbed" I am going to caution you about the pitfalls of passion, collectivism, and hearsay when attemtping to arrive at truth or convince others you have some. All conspiracies by all people everywhere and everywhen are subject to the axiom that keeping a secret is inversely and logarithmically proportional to the number of conspirators. It's really safe when only one knows, moderately safe when just 2 or 3 know, but the odds go crazy over a dozen or so. There are literally millions who could trip up any conspiracy so vast as alleged Apollo Fakery.

The odds of a reveal are generally also increased over time. Over almost 50 years, with so many participants it would certainly have occurred. So it isn't just "Amerika". It's everyone, and after the flip-flop of recent presidential elections it should be obvious that the US is nowhere near homogenous but instead operates largely on polarity. The one common denominator is "power brokers" and they are essentially the same every time, every where.

Perhaps a greater mistake is "quoting" Stephen hawking without a reference. I can not find any instance of his having said that or anything like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl Jam - This Is Not For You
If you hate something don't you do it too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon
Short. Sharp. Shock. Dig it?

Last edited by enorbet; 06-10-2017 at 01:24 PM.
 
Old 06-10-2017, 03:05 PM   #66
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Sometimes, especially as I read conspiracy theories, I start to feel like I'm in The Truman Show, and these sorts of things are just to provoke me for The Show.
 
Old 06-11-2017, 07:55 PM   #67
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Stephen Hawkings said that about a related subject, Aliens on earth. Relevant for his insight that Amerikans (context: area 51) could never keep the secret. Watch his documentaries.

Just got the "Ancient Aliens" series, by the way. Hilarious and love the guy's hair.

Kinda brought up an odd questions. Do the "aliens are here" crowd get along with "moon hoax" believers as they would seem to be incompatible? Oughta have a rumble on pay-per-view. Tell me you wouldn't watch.

My real feeling is that if I was a part a of a large conspiracy, I would make it my job to fully support the most ridiculous conspiracies I could find. Every alien hunter is 1 more person not looking at the real conspiracies killing hundreds of thousands or even millions as in Vietnam.

Raise your hand high so they focus on it... than kick them in the balls. Thats magic at it's base-ist. All its ever been.

Another big real one is The Fed stinks to high heaven from it's outset onward and I'm amazed how little is said about it. A Ponzi scheme redistributing everything of value to the few while burdening the rising majority of poor at an ever accelerating rate. Too boring. Maybe if I started a rumour aliens were involved, sheeple would look. There's a project. Sex it up like a WMD.

The moon? Don't care. Aliens on earth? Don't care. Invisible all-seeing galaxy-creating gods? Don't care. I only study these to better understand human gullibility or get some comedy relief. People are a trip.

"If you would know what life is worth, you would look for yours on Earth.." Prophet Bob Marley (on aliens?).

Just havin fun witcha... late.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 01:21 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkester View Post
Another big real one is The Fed stinks to high heaven from it's outset onward and I'm amazed how little is said about it. A Ponzi scheme redistributing everything of value to the few while burdening the rising majority of poor at an ever accelerating rate. Too boring. Maybe if I started a rumour aliens were involved, sheeple would look. There's a project. Sex it up like a WMD.
You're too late for that! David Icke has already proved that the financial systems of the world are controlled by giant shape-shifting lizards from outer space.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 10:36 AM   #69
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Another good book that I once read was called, Senseless Secrets. It is said that J K Rowling based her "Room of Requirement" in the Harry Potter series upon similar known behaviors by the British Government.

"Someone woulda blabbed?" No, probably not. And furthermore, in those days, how could they have gotten it into the public perceptions of the American people? There was no Internet. Only newspapers, magazines and television. Government contractors of course had no reason to object. Foreigners probably saw little reason to. But, actually, the questions and suspicions were growing in Congress and in other places as the lunar landings seemed to simply become more and more "routine." Too "routine." This is said to be one of the reasons why Apollo, one day, "simply 'stopped.'"

For the better part of a decade, the American people were being served exactly the Omelette that they then wanted to eat. And, to this day, the majority of them still want to believe that 100% of which they had witnessed and had been told is the gospel truth.

But there were suspicions, including in the minds of "this then-little kid," who of course tended to believe anything that he was told but who was also learning a lot about science. For instance, the "delay-free audio and video(!)," which I very plainly saw and heard, and (as I've said earlier) asked my dad about at the time. I wondered about Apollo 13, including how-the-hell they got that camera out there to take a picture of that obviously-damaged and yet obviously not too damaged piece of the spacecraft. (Plus, I expected them to suffocate.) I looked at photos even then and wondered why I didn't see any astronauts holding their cameras up to their faces when that was very-obviously where the photos had to be coming from. (Even close up, you were looking at the other astronaut eye to eye, not "chest to eye.") And the "moon walks" looked strangely slow-motion in which the dust was in slow-motion too.

Yeah, even a little kid saw that sort of thing, and wondered about it at the time ... in 1969 and then in the early 1970's, as he wondered what they were going to do with the latest crate of kitchen glasses that the good folks at the Pure station, looking all snappy in their white uniforms, gave you as a gift each time you said, "fill it up with high test!"

So, yes, NASA never did have an entire nation of people who were 100% accepting of what they were seeing on TeeVee.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-12-2017 at 10:49 AM.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 11:31 AM   #70
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkester View Post
Do the "aliens are here" crowd get along with "moon hoax" believers as they would seem to be incompatible?
I don't see anything incompatible?
 
Old 06-12-2017, 12:20 PM   #71
enorbet
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Delay free audio and video? The average delay of one-way transmissions from the Moon to the Earth is ~1.3 seconds, not much more than a transatlantic phone call in 1969, which, btw, was common among scientists in Russia, USA and elsewhere. Communication may have been slower but you seem to imagine it was rare or non-existent. Additionally you ignore that not only did Australia play a major part in communication beamed to and from the Moon but so did many other countries who would certainly have been able to disprove the source and a few, like Russia at the time, were heavily invested in "USA loses. We win" sensibility and policy. No data deviated from any other. All were in agreement. It happened and as stated both where and when. So yeah... someone would most definitely have blabbed out of the hundred's of thousands involved had it been faked and it would have been in someones' morning paper, and within a day, globally disseminated.

The distaste for and subsequent dismantling of big budget Space Exploration, and in fact Science as a whole among politicians had nothing to do with a perception of "too routine". It had much more to do with the massive egos of politicians and their concern over "Commies" as well as their small-minded (and totally inaccurate) perception that Science was playing with toys of no consequence while "we Big Boys have a war to fight, yet those eggheads and irresponsible redneck pilots get all the glory".

As for "slow motion" here is the original footage and while astronaut movement is understandably awkward (0.17 gravity doesn't diminish bulk or mass) it doesn't look at all slow mo to me. At no time does the dust "hang in the air" or in any way appear slow. Its motion is completely consistent with the laws of motion. Incidentally, since it is even more obvious that Apollo did indeed take off and go into space, if it didn't go to the moon, where exactly do you suppose it "hid"?

--- Apollo 11 Original Footage ---

PLUS - When are you going to address the laser reflectors? They are either there, exactly as placed by careful human hands, or they are not. Please do explain how to have faked that data not only then but continuing today.

Last edited by enorbet; 06-12-2017 at 12:24 PM.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 01:48 PM   #72
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You know the problem, Enorbet, as well as anyone. Mission Control says something to the astronauts. It takes 1.3 seconds for the message to get there. The astronauts think about what to say in return, and say it, and it takes another 1.3 seconds for the reply to arrive. And, if the astronauts are beaming slow-scan video to Earth, that video is necessarily delayed as well. But it was noticeable(!), even to a little kid, that the two parties were replying to one another almost immediately, as if they were having a normal conversation.

"By gosh and by golly, I was there!!"

Now, if you watch a video of those same recordings today, you will find that the "appropriate" delays are now present. And, unless you were there, you might readily accept it. However, even then, there is incongruity in the actual things that the two parties are saying to each other that indicates the presence of the ex post facto trick of inserting silence (and echoes). Remember, I was a child of those times, as were you, and I did have trans-atlantic conversations on rare occasion, which were transmitted by satellite links. I'm therefore fully aware of what a conversation sounds like when these delays are present ... and ... and ... and ... when they are not.

- - -

There's also a lot(!) of misinformation about those "lunar reflectors."

NASA would invite you to believe that they simply shined their Headlights™, from Planet Earth, into the Eyes™ of a waiting Deer™ on the surface of the Moon. The physical realities, unfortunately, are not so cut-and-dry.

The outbound signal, whether originated by a laser beam or not, must navigate the Earth's atmosphere both going and coming. A tiny fraction of that signal will find itself correctly-positioned to actually reach our reflector, which will gather all beams reaching it from a variety of angles and then retransmit them, also across a variety of angles that hopefully will include "any of our ever-searching telescopes." However, only a further-reduced fraction of those photons will actually make it through the atmosphere a second time to reach us.

Although we know that the Soviets placed two reflectors on the Moon, we spent many years trying to find them. And, when we did, we were "counting individual photons."

But... here's the rub! We don't actually need reflectors on the surface of the Moon, even if we do find them.

As you will learn when a cop gives you a speeding ticket based on a "lidar gun," no "reflector" is necessary in order to make a meaningful conclusion based on a light beam. As long as you are somehow able to detect the unique presence of "the unique signal that you transmitted" within the wave-of-noise that you received, you can achieve your objective. You can very-precisely measure distances and speeds: of speeding cars, of baseballs, and of Moons. You don't actually care – don't care at all – whether any particular spot on that target has been "especially primed" to "especially reflect" your transmitted signal –whether it be "a laser beam," "a radar wave," or a transmission by an earthbound Ham Radio operator who is seeing if he can achieve an echo using an aluminum pie-pan as an antenna. The speed of light, after all, is precisely the same.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-12-2017 at 08:18 PM.
 
Old 06-13-2017, 10:22 AM   #73
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The global conspiracy theory of the ancient pyramids being made by aliens, but were in fact constructed via synchronicity..
 
Old 06-13-2017, 02:02 PM   #74
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@ sundialsvcs - Yup. You're right. I did watch Apollo Landing on Live TV as a teenager but I didn't find anything suspicious beyond wondering why the video feed was so poor. It wasn't until later that I discovered the Live feed was being sent back on very low bandwidth due to low power of the transmitter which was fine for audio but as we all have experienced with PCs video is many orders of magnitude more bandwidth intensive and costly. The time delay you found suspicious in all honesty didn't impact me enough, either it or lack of it, to even have it part of my memory.

However, one more time, any anomalies we may imagine or interpret are "swamped' by hard data from then and now. Australians, Russians and others witnessed the loss of radar signal when Apollo went behind the moon relative to Earth and it's re-emergence all at the right distances and timing. So again I ask you not only how was that faked but assuming it somehow was (possibly requiring higher tech than actually going) where was "the real capsule" hiding? It was followed continuously to the Moon by more than one nation and by more than one method.

If you know anything about Stealth technology you know that radar does indeed require a reflector as does any waveform of electromagnetic energy, that is if you want to detect something in the field and gather any data about that object. The need for the reflector is so the much larger signal from it, relative to background albedo, will stand out and be strong enough to actually gather data such as the amount distance increases as the moon slowly retreats from the Earth at around 0.25 inches per year. You and other Moon Landing Deniers are for some reason so invested in denial, especially in this area, that you are grasping at straws by trying to defuse and diffuse with irrelevant comparisons that you happily ignore. One of those is the massive amount of power (1 Gigawatt or 1 Million Kilowatts or about 1.3 Million Horsepower) required to do exactly as you outlined, traverse a half million miles (there and back) and have more than single photons to count.

I honestly find it extremely puzzling why someone like you persists in this 3 Card Monte charade. You might ask yourself what, if anything short of the dozen modern trips you've mentioned in the past, would you find convincing? You might further ask yourself what would be different from 1969 since photos can be altered now more than before and you apparently still think the Van Allen Belts are like some instant death zone, so considering it would be only slightly different from your experience circa 1969, would that even convince you? Or would it simply be when everything just looks "right" to you? Then I would ask exactly what frame of reference do you actually have upon which to judge. Have you seen other photos or video feeds from the Moon? I could go on but I'm sure you get the idea.

I submit that the game you are playing, whether consciously or unconsciously, is much like prophesy in that if enough time must pass before it or you can be proven wrong, preferably long after we are dead, it is possible to maintain an air of "knowing" or "not being fooled" that feels like a more level playing field. This phenomenon occurs in every field, even simple Sports, where that mysterious (and sometimes imagined threatening) intellect is less an issue and it's all about the physical, or so it is imagined by those who conveniently ignore or minimize genetics and training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry (Marlon Brando) On The Waterfront
Terry: You don't understand. I coulda had class. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody
I was going to follow that with a quote from R. Crumb's Whiteman at the Parade but given the PC world we live in today it would likely be heavily misunderstood causing a major (and minimally productive) tangent but maybe you remember that gem and get my meaning - We are all far less in control of Our Journey than is comfortable to believe but I'm willing to take a long odds bet that even a week as a sentient being beats being a rock "six ways from Sunday".
 
Old 06-13-2017, 07:34 PM   #75
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We just don't see eye-to-eye on this. Let's just wind it down.
 
  


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