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Ok, I await, the huge post debunking everything I just posted.
Nah. I only have a few comments since it appears we only differ on scale for the most part, although I have a hard time imagining a HUGE corporation so affected by a mere thunderstorm that they have to shutdown. It would be cheaper to simply fortify and provide against any deleterious effects than to delve into unproven weather control as has been experienced time and time again, FWIW the 8.8 million dollar project that failed (yet again) I referred to in Wyoming was in 2006 iirc, not way in the past.
Regarding deliberate weather change and costs, I'm afraid the analogy you gave "doesn't hold water" since the reason that PC hardware has dropped so dramatically in price is because of the Demand of billions of people buying them. There is no counterpart in weather control.
Of course you are absolutely correct that emissions "aren't everything". There are numerous factors at play globally and locally which is why some areas and some periods experience temperature increase while others experience decreases. It's the Global Mean temperature that is rising and at a rather alarming rate and one of the largest factors is the billions of tons of CO2 emissions. It's not the only factor by any means but it is becoming an ever larger component and unfortunately we not only don't know but we can't know when and where tipping points, points of no return, are reached because with the exception of the several Global Mass Extinctions in the Deep Past, CO2 has never been this high and most never this prolonged with the super exception of The Permian Extinction 250,000,000 years ago caused by massive volcanic action that lasted nearly a million years... lower per annum output but over a vast amount of time.
OT Note: I never have owned a John Deere but have operated a few. The manure spreader joke was told to me by a dairy farmer I once worked for. I have owned Case, Massey Fergusen and I actually forget the brand of the ancient W4 tractor I owned for a time but that might be because it was a lunker that had only a hand crank for a starter. Cranking that rascal at 20 below it got called a lot of names but I don't recall any of them were even close to the manufacturer's name and I've never heard of an SOB brand
Most of you will know what a baobab looks like. They are African trees that look as if they were planted upside-down with the branches at the top of the enormously tall trunk looking like a tangle of roots. Some of them are incredibly old, thousands of years. And now they are dying.
A recent study found that 8 of the 13 most ancient known baobabs and 5 of the 6 largest are either dying or dead.
@enorbet Do a Google search for "weather modification services" once. Not much shows up, but you can see that it is still relevant today.
Actually, Mill J ol' buddy, I already did. It's one of the values I mine from forums, learning of specific areas where I am less than learned, even ignorant or just not certain that I'm up to date. I saw that, as expected, people are still pursuing weather modification (who wouldn't want to learn how to stop a tornado?) but so far efforts have been less provably effective than Divining Rods at finding water and human sacrifice to "appease the gods".
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
We are drifting on a sharp tangent from Climate Change into politics so I will attempt to keep this short but I will answer since it appears that you assume Climate Change is not about Science but about the politics while I can't identify any one group with any political clout who stands to gain from going against the fossil fuel status quo especially whwen there is no workable solution yet in perceived beyond mere minimizing the damage.
I don't care that Adolf and the boys called themselves Socialists. I care whether they fit the definition or not and they didn't. Socialism, Communism and Fascism are descriptive terms like "pear" or "rose". Those are both flowering plants but they are quite different in many ways. The political terms were coined to describe who owns the means of production. They are not the same, although in practice it isn't that difficult for any system, including Capitalism which begins with individuals owning the means of production and Socialism where at least theoretically everything is somehow jointly owned, to morph into systems that are nearly indistinguishable from each other as Socialism generally has required some ruling body to administer said property and in Capitalism once the rich get rich enough the result is similar in that the same people who control the means of production are also heavily involved in making and enforcing Law, and frankly who cares how they got there once a ruling class forms and gathers dictatorial power?.
FWIW I think you have it backwards. Communism doesn't evolve into Socialism. Historically it has been the reverse of that
Since technology has always been an important part of wealth and power and in the last few centuries has accelerated of course there is considerable influence on Science once Law and Economics are tightly combined BUT that refers to where the money is, NOT where abstract research goes. Some scientists cave in to the rewards offered by Industry who wants practical, usable, application of concrete science that has immediate benefit and can be bought and sold and/or used for Defense. I truly don't see any identifiable group that stands to gain from seeking to largely abandon fossil fuels, thus there is little political or economic motive. It's always easier if not safer to "bet with The House" . The idea that Climate Change is a scam is simply ludicrous. Anyone can visit glaciers to see how much they've melted even in our own lifetimes. It is possible to check the numbers on the amount of CO2 dumped into our atmosphere. If there is a group that is scamming do you imagine this is a worldwide and across-the-board scam? Or who besides those in the fossil fuel business is claiming scam? So, what? Everyone else is in on the con?
The data is all around you and you refuse to see it because you are focused on political agenda. This, my friend, is far bigger than National Politics. There are people in the world, and scientists are among the most rabid, who don't give a damn about mundane politics. They only want to know how Nature works and how we fit into the scheme. That's what Ivory Towers means and why for example during The Cold War astronomers and other scientists in both Russia and the rest of the world continued to communicate and often even collaborate as if there were no borders. They are imaginary, after all.
You are attempting to put words in my mouth. I did not say that the Climate is not Changing or that Climate Change is a Scam, in fact I proposed (using data collected over 5,000 years and recorded) that of course the Climate Changes, it is one of the Natural/Universal Laws. What is a scam it the politicization of climate change, also the science used to back up that politicization is a scam.
You are also sadly mistaken regarding the politics of this debate, it has everything to do with politics and the stats/scientific data is merely being used to justify a political endgame. Communism and Fascism are both fast track revolutionary routes to Socialism, to say that they are different is either a lie or being misinformed. Of course there are minor differences between them, however, the objective is the same...to allow no form of rule or government except Socialism, in particular Marxist Socialism.
If you want more, I will post many quotes from Marx, Hitler and other Socialists that praised environmentalism and how it was rooted in the Socialist objective.
Actually, Mill J ol' buddy, I already did. It's one of the values I mine from forums, learning of specific areas where I am less than learned, even ignorant or just not certain that I'm up to date. I saw that, as expected, people are still pursuing weather modification (who wouldn't want to learn how to stop a tornado?) but so far efforts have been less provably effective than Divining Rods at finding water and human sacrifice to "appease the gods".
Q: Any evidence?
A: Why certainly Your Honour, I did a web search and also looked up several websites....
@ntubski I can't really see what you're getting at with such an open-ended question.
You made an analogy from weather control technology to hard drive manufacturing technology, with the argument being (as I understood it) that since hard drives got cheaper, so should weather control. But just because one thing gets cheaper, it doesn't follow that everything does.
I saw that, as expected, people are still pursuing weather modification (who wouldn't want to learn how to stop a tornado?) but so far efforts have been less provably effective than Divining Rods at finding water and human sacrifice to "appease the gods".
While I have never offered human or animal sacrifice to appease unseen omnipotent entities, I have dowsed for water. Successfully.
It shocked me when the wire rods turned in my hands and crossed over themselves.
The person who interested me in it said his sister could do it but he couldn't.
You made an analogy from weather control technology to hard drive manufacturing technology, with the argument being (as I understood it) that since hard drives got cheaper, so should weather control. But just because one thing gets cheaper, it doesn't follow that everything does.
I'm pretty sure you've been messing with tech long enough to know exactly what I was referring to.
I agree that not everything gets cheaper, not everything can be imported from China(just kidding). However as of now I can't think of any tech stuff that didn't get cheaper over the years. Ok maybe a M$ software license
BTW Just because a product cost 50 cents 75 years ago and that same product today costs 5 bucks, doesn't necessarily mean it is more expensive today.
A: Why certainly Your Honour, I did a web search and also looked up several websites....
I rest my case....
HaHa Hah! Funny... well, sort of, in a rather disingenuous way. Don't rest just yet. I imagine you are aware that what's online (or anywhere else) is simply data and it takes a human brain to apply critical thought to "separate the wheat from the chaff". To write off a conclusion simply because data is found online is a non sequitur. It's only a few pixels in an entire picture. The evidence that deliberate weather modification is a hit or (mostly) miss illusion is that weather still disrupts, storms still ruin and kill, routinely and everywhere all over our planet.
Rainmakers and Dowsers are like Astrology charts and Psychic Crime Solvers - if you believe then you ignore or conveniently forget the failures and only tout the coincidental "successes". So please do name one company, Mom 'n Pop or full corporation that is getting rich providing reliable weather modification... just one. I won't even mind if you find that one through a (remaining) newspaper, The Almanac, The Library of Congress or through Duck Duck Go... just as long as it can be cross-checked.
Regarding the market place costs of things, that is not a function of Time. For example when transistor radios with printed circuit boards were invented they reduced the price of radios in general because those processes lend themselves to automated mass production and as the price went down effective demand went up because it was possible for the average family to afford several radios instead of the huge consoles popular around the time of Fireside Chats. Now because of the proliferation of parts for printed circuits and solid state electronics, the few items that are hand-wired and employ vacuum tubes are way more expensive than they used to be. Cost doesn't follow Time. It follows Supply and Demand as it always has and likely always will.
I'm pretty sure you've been messing with tech long enough to know exactly what I was referring to.
I agree that not everything gets cheaper, not everything can be imported from China(just kidding). However as of now I can't think of any tech stuff that didn't get cheaper over the years. Ok maybe a M$ software license
I think "tech stuff" is a pretty fuzzy category. My impression of the weather control stuff is that it's about dropping chemicals into the atmosphere. So it should be compared to things like fertilizer (dropping chemicals on the ground) or water chlorination. As far as I know, there hasn't major advancement over time in those things (but, I don't know much about it, not having ever owned a farm nor a swimming pool).
You are attempting to put words in my mouth. I did not say that the Climate is not Changing or that Climate Change is a Scam, in fact I proposed (using data collected over 5,000 years and recorded) that of course the Climate Changes, it is one of the Natural/Universal Laws. What is a scam it the politicization of climate change, also the science used to back up that politicization is a scam.
Since the foundation of that "evidence" is records that are kept bt the Chinese, please address how and why they now accept that the Science is not a scam but a true picture of the effects of billions of industrialized humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu
You are also sadly mistaken regarding the politics of this debate, it has everything to do with politics and the stats/scientific data is merely being used to justify a political endgame. Communism and Fascism are both fast track revolutionary routes to Socialism, to say that they are different is either a lie or being misinformed. Of course there are minor differences between them, however, the objective is the same...to allow no form of rule or government except Socialism, in particular Marxist Socialism.
While I disagree that Communism and Fascism are essentially identical, for the sake of discussion let's call that "nomenclature", a mere symbolic representation of the thing itself and move on to why the acceptance of the, in your words, human caused global climate change "justifies a political endgame". Please do include how and why this is any different from any other technological achievement. Is the Electrical Power Grid Network also such a scam? or the automobile and telephone industries? How about the "scam" insisting we need instantaneous access to data globally? How about "round" Earth or the multiplicity of galaxies? Just when and how does one determine that scientific discovery is a scam? Well by cross-checking, right? After all, anyone can visit the places photographed and studied that are solid evidence for rapid and increasing gains in Global Average Temperature. It might be somewhat costly to visit the Ross Ice Shelf but how can any one group control ALL of the time-stamped photos of that area?
If you want more, I will post many quotes from Marx, Hitler and other Socialists that praised environmentalism and how it was rooted in the Socialist objective.
It really doesn't matter that Marx, Hitler and whatever Boogie Men you care to exemplify "praised environmentalism" (and just what the hell is "environmentalism? everyone knows it isn't wise to defecate in the kitchen) since they also praised Motherhood, loved food and presumably shelter and sex as well. That Michaelangelo was apparently homosexual doesn't make The Sistene Chapel of any less magnitude as a glorious achievement in both technology and Art.
Capitalists also realize that it is not wise to "kill the goose that lays the golden eggs" or allow their environments to be polluted. There is no direct connection between care for environment and any one political philosophy with the possible exception of crazies whose just want to see the world in flames... or convince others that enemies are everywhere.
I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but Tony Abbott was not only dumped as Prime Minister by his own party, he does not believe in Global warming nor does he believe in Climate Change and thinks it's a scam. The "carbon tax" was imposed by the Australian Labor Party, not the Liberal Party (that Tony Abbott is a member of), also, the Labor Party promised NOT to bring in a "carbon tax" and then broke that promise.
Most people I know where also very glad that the Liberal Party came to it's senses and dumped Abbott as their leader. I was also very glad about that myself, and personally I think the Liberal Party are just as moronic as the Labor Party. Liberal's are for the big end of town and Labor is for the Trade Unions.
So you should really do proper research. I know this because unlike you, I DO actually live in Australia.
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I rest my case....
