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Old 11-16-2019, 03:13 PM   #46
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
You're right up to a point, Enorbet. The Treaty of Versailles wasn't the cause of Hitler's pathology but it did play a large role in easing his way to power. Without French revanchism, there wouldn't have been an occupation of the Ruhr and and probably no Great Inflation.

But you can't just blame the French. They were themselves seeking redress for their humiliation by Kaiser Wilhelm I after the Franco-Prussian war, which involved the compulsory annexation of two of their provinces. And you can see the same pattern elsewhere. Serbian atrocities during the Yugoslavian civil war were mostly revenge for Croat atrocities against Serbs in the 1940's, when many Croats collaborated with the Germans. And don't get me started on Northern Ireland, where catholics and protestants spent years killing each other to avenge wrongs that go back three hundred years.

That's the cycle we have to break. And I don't think it can be broken by telling victims (including victim nations) that they'll just have to lump it for everybody else's sake. If that's the only alternative we can produce, peace has lost the argument.
Yes, hazel, I am aware of the legacy of violence and how far back it very often goes and it was never my suggestion to "just lump it". It isn't even always just a reaction to a violence against some perceived whole that reflects "self", but also from lessons. It is my understanding that Hitler used anti-semitism and The Final Solution largely because he saw the world did not react harshly to Turkey's attempted genocide of Armenians.

You are IMHO absolutely correct about the need to find ways to "break the cycle", and FTR I'm not just blaming the French. It was after all called WORLD War for a reason. Everyone had a stake in it. IMHO any peace accord should recognize they are creating a powder keg if the terms are too punishing. When it literally took a bushel basket full of German marks to buy a pair of shoes alarm bells should have rung if not way sooner.

If your dog bites a family member you must decide between training and putting it down. Daily ongoing beatings will not make it less dangerous. So unless we wish to promote genocide the only viable choice is a solution that does punish but is negotiated, regulated and monitored to actually and ultimately improve conditions which should be possible when we are not talking about animals immune to concepts but thoughtful humans subject to political and economic conditions. Blaming and harshly punishing the entire nation of Germany for what a few caused is not a thoughtful response, just a knee-jerk reaction and one to be avoided. It is worthy of note that treaties and treatment after WWII was more reasonable and beneficial to all than those of WWI.
 
Old 11-16-2019, 03:48 PM   #47
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
I don't understand how a topic like this is allowed.
Many people posting here don't even seem to have suffered an actual war, they just went to the military.
And the US military at that.
Surely that's not what being a veteran is about?
A few people tried to point out how that is selective and bad, but it seems to be slipping back into boys talk.
Bragging about big toys for big boys. Only when they find out first hand that these big toys actually kill by the thousands, they call that "suffering for the homeland"???
What about those that suffered the vanity of those big boys with a will for expansion? Should we not rather commemorate them?

This thread indirectly advertises violence and discrimination and must be closed.
It shows lack of respect for peoples' sufferings all around the world.
Isn't this is a global forum, not a US forum? Please keep that in mind.
Really Henderson? Did we make you click on the forum topic/thread? The OP (who is a moderator, keep in mind) started a thread in the Non Nix Forum General---- That is the appropriate place, he started the thread on the USA Veterans Day which is a day to honor all those who served in the Military. Your SJW argument and tactics are baseless, there are threads on here about Halloween, Heavy Metal Music, UK Politics etc... no problem with a member from the USA starting a thread about a topic that is important to them and may be to others. Also, we don't live in a bubble, notice how people from other countries have also added their thoughts, but keep in mind the thread was pertaining to the American Veterans Day holiday. You have a problem with that click on something else. So far you are the only one bringing nonsense to the thread.
 
Old 11-16-2019, 03:52 PM   #48
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system002 View Post
this forum has a habit of calling anyone a troll that they disagree with.https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ou-4175660612/
not only this thread but specifically users like you are a disgrace to it.
i want to +1 henderson for their brave words! this is what is sorely missing in this self-gratifying thread.
And yes, it would be nice to see some posts that are actually helping somebody - that is the 20 million victims of us post-ww2 aggression.
Don't you snowflakes get tired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDYNVH0U3cs
 
Old 11-18-2019, 03:50 PM   #49
Michael Uplawski
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Blaming and harshly punishing the entire nation of Germany for what a few caused is not a thoughtful response, just a knee-jerk reaction and one to be avoided. It is worthy of note that treaties and treatment after WWII was more reasonable and beneficial to all than those of WWI.
... folks. Stick to what you have seen and felt, not the media, not even the books. One of the biggest crimes of History was committed right after WWII, when the Germans and their future generations, -me-, had not been allowed to say:
A whole people can rot from the inside. Been there, done that!”. Now face it and stop fantasizing about the degree to which most of Germany approved or disapproved of anything. Affronting the Soviet block had been given precedence so quickly, that “punishing” or just confronting the Germans with their own rotten attitude had been canceled, mayors stayed mayors, judges stayed judges and Nazi-Killers like the butcher of Warsaw were running for political office.

As regards “a mere few” who did something, this concerns any action of resistance.

It is surely not “The Germans” who have invented selfhypnosis, but if we had been given the chance to get out of it, much of what followed would not have been possible.

Dream on and enjoy your war fun... Ω
 
Old 11-18-2019, 11:23 PM   #50
enorbet
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Michael, you do realize I was talking about post WWI in reference to "a mere few", right? There's no way to know for certain but it is certainly possible that had the treaties been more carefully constructed after WWI, there would not have been a WWII.

I am in no way excusing the atrocities of WWII. One side of my family is Jewish and I have documentation of over a dozen ancestors who died, effectively murdered horribly, in a handful of "camps" and I have no idea how many more that were not documented or "fell through the cracks" were likewise robbed, tortured and killed. I am no apologist.
 
Old 11-19-2019, 05:56 AM   #51
hazel
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One excellent thing that the Allies did after the German surrender in 1945 was to arrange and carry out the Nuremberg Trials. Instead of just punishing "the Germans" en masse as had been done in 1918, they put those architects of the Nazi state who were still alive on trial, so that the German people as a whole could see exactly what had been done in their name. I have read that they also rounded up many of the small town leaders and forcibly escorted them through their local concentration camps so that they could see and even smell what they had for so long ignored. It seems to have worked. Instead of thinking of themselves as martyrs and seeking revenge, the Germans became truly ashamed of what they had done and have worked hard to rehabilitate themselves.
 
Old 11-20-2019, 02:44 AM   #52
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
It seems to have worked. Instead of thinking of themselves as martyrs and seeking revenge, the Germans became truly ashamed of what they had done and have worked hard to rehabilitate themselves.
Having grown up in post-war Germany, I believe it did work.
Until 1990 it would've been political suicide to say "I'm proud to be a German".
We never learned traditional folk music, but went through the horrors of Nazi Germany and WWII in 3 separate school subjects.
Etc.

Of course there will always be blod-hungry monsters amongst us, but that holds true for every country in the world, and of course those from post-Hitler Germany will always get special treatment and special attention from the rest of the world.

Also, Godwin's Law at work here?

Last edited by ondoho; 11-23-2019 at 04:26 AM. Reason: added "from the rest of the world"
 
Old 11-20-2019, 09:40 AM   #53
teckk
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Quote:
One excellent thing that the Allies did after the German surrender in 1945 was to arrange and carry out the Nuremberg Trials.
I disagree. The Nazi's most certainly should have been brought to justice, but the US, Britain, Soviets had no lawful authority to try citizens of another nation, who committed crimes in that nation. They just did it anyway because the were stronger. I think that it was unlawful.

Same as rounding up German citizens/civilians, putting them in pens outside for 2 weeks, no shelter, no food, and letting them die. That is a war crime. They just got away with it because everyone was mad at the Germans, because of those prison/death camps.

The Germans/German state had lawful authority to try their own citizens for crimes committed contrary to German law. International agreements/law/The Hague did not exist yet.

The nations of the world should have watched while the restored lawful German state elected officials tried the nazi's for war crimes and violation of German law.

Quote:
the Germans became truly ashamed of what they had done and have worked hard to rehabilitate themselves.
Yes they sure have. In fact they have been on their knees ever since, bending over backwards showing how liberal they are.

I am an America. I've stood on the grounds of Dachau prison camp. I'm certainly not pro 3rd Reich.

But, Germany rising up in WW2 did not happen in a vacuum. Between the wars the communists were trying to seize the country. The Germans knew quite well what that would mean for them. The French were assaulting whatever citizens that they wanted to in the south that they occupied, carting away whatever german property that they wanted from the Rurh valley area. Germans were dying from starvation.

And out of that malaise of competing political parties, violence, low national moral, hopelessness, rose a national party to fight for Germany that said "Vote for us" and we'll restore Germany.

Sound familiar? Could almost be a modern newspaper.
 
Old 11-20-2019, 10:31 AM   #54
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
I don't understand how a topic like this is allowed.
How about "freedom of speech"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
Many people posting here don't even seem to have suffered an actual war, they just went to the military.
And the US military at that.
Surely that's not what being a veteran is about?
Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I don't know, so wouldn't make that judgement. From a quick glance, the first few posters seem to indicate they are veterans - as this is the WWW and they post under pseudonyms, we can choose to believe them or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
A few people tried to point out how that is selective and bad, but it seems to be slipping back into boys talk.
No, one veteran posted, feels he was ignored, but that can happen from time to time on any forum. I never expect, nor feel entitled to replies on a public forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
Bragging about big toys for big boys. Only when they find out first hand that these big toys actually kill by the thousands, they call that "suffering for the homeland"???
What about those that suffered the vanity of those big boys with a will for expansion? Should we not rather commemorate them?
While you may have a point, when applied to certain situations - I have somehow missed the in depth discussions of military hardware in this thread...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
This thread indirectly advertises violence and discrimination and must be closed.
Again I'm lost as to where the thread "advertises" either violence or discrimination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
It shows lack of respect for peoples' sufferings all around the world.
It may do, in that war is a divisive subject which is viewed differently by citizens of various countries - often depending on what side they were on in a given conflict. The main argument supporting your assertion is that the US has not directly experienced war on it's own soil since the civil war in the 19th century. The UK by comparison suffered the blitz and more recently the Balkans, Middle East and elsewhere have seen the effects of war on their own doorsteps - so yes I do see your point.
 
  


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