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Old 09-19-2020, 09:23 AM   #46
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
These numbers differ quite a lot from what I saw on ourworldindata.org.
I don't think the numbers themselves are significantly different. The graph you link compares the EU as a whole to the US. Some individual European countries are ahead of the US in per-capita deaths:

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavir...pickerSort=asc

Up to you to decide which measure is more useful. I do think that ourworldindata.org looks like a better source.
 
Old 09-19-2020, 04:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
Draw your own conclusions.
Now I am no expert in this subject but you can actually measure transparency and accountability. The outcome is measured in trust.

Unfortunately the interest of a lot of the press is not to sell trustworthy news but to sell newspapers or ads on TV or internet: a common misconception with most people. Fact checking seems to be a thing of the past when beating other news outlets is the greater importance. News outlets have always been only partly reliable but to me it seems to have gotten worse in the last 15 years or so. Having an opinion seems to matter more than having your facts straight in the first place.

However I am no pessimist and I just know that in the end, quality will prevail in the press arena. "Common Joe and Jane" are no fools and they're the ones news outlets need for their revenue.

Last edited by Hermani; 09-19-2020 at 04:39 PM.
 
Old 09-20-2020, 04:13 AM   #48
ondoho
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Originally Posted by Hermani View Post
Unfortunately the interest of a lot of the press is not to sell trustworthy news but to sell newspapers or ads on TV or internet: a common misconception with most people.
As you said: a lot - not all of them.
Quote:
Fact checking seems to be a thing of the past
Not completely.
Quote:
However I am no pessimist and I just know that in the end, quality will prevail in the press arena. "Common Joe and Jane" are no fools and they're the ones news outlets need for their revenue.
Exactly.

I am by no means naïve, but I can see that there are differences in journalism, and there still is an ethic.
In other words: I believe I consume some pretty good news that at least strives to be objective.
I feel sad for people who believe that this doesn't exist (anymore) and it's all just a rip-off...
 
Old 09-20-2020, 07:07 AM   #49
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Unfortunately the interest of a lot of the press is not to sell trustworthy news but to sell newspapers or ads on TV or internet
They know exactly what they are doing. They are leftists. What they are doing is propaganda and attempted indoctrination. Have you watched the unhinged way that they have acted for the last 4 years? And I don't think that they are able to understand how embarrassing their behavior has been to them, and how they have disgraced themselves and their industry. They did not have a lot of credibility to start with, but now they have none. They are in a fog of delusion.

A good analogy for them is a 4 year old that did not get a cookie and is going to hold his breath and stomp his feet until he gets one.

Those airways that the "media" use in the US are public. They belong to us not them. I would like to see the FCC refuse to relicense them when their license is up. Put the broadcast rights to those frequencies up for bid. Allow some other start up companies a chance to see if they could do a better job serving the citizenry.

The current "media" in the US is really a disgrace and embarrassment to the nation.

Ruth Buzzy Ginsburg just passed. A judicial activist judge that refused to obey they law, who said that we should ignore the US constitution and decide cases bases on foreign constitutions. Good riddance. Now go ahead and yell at me. The Trump admin has said that they are going to try and get another judge on the court to replace her. And Mitch McConnell of course is going to charge ahead with that even though he did just the opposite with Garland. The media circus and attempted circling the wagons around the democrat party, and trying to make the republicans look as bad a possible, even making things up is going to be a disgusting spectacle indeed.

If you enjoy watching the "media" make absolute fools of themselves, trying their best to carry water for the democrats, while lying twisting perverting altering editing what the republicans do/say, then watch what's coming up.
 
Old 09-20-2020, 09:41 AM   #50
michaelk
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Ruth Buzzy Ginsburg
To denigrate justice Ginsburg is really uncalled for at this time. The original constitution basically gave rights to white males that owned land. Many did not like her use of comparative law but it’s use dates back to John Adams. Her cause for equal rights and gender equality made her who she was.

On a replacement, the majority makes the rules back in 2016 as well as now. The minority is whining and due to all the political division all the “gentleman’s” rules are out the door. It is was it is.

Journalism is supposed to be the unbiased reporting of the facts but the media goes from the extreme right to extreme left. The fake news is more of reporting Trump’s fake reality and alternative facts then maybe more of the real issues. If you are a good republican one has to reiterate this fake reality to stay In office. The problem with internet and social media is one can be made to believe in just about anything with enough likes or retweets.

It was inevitable that this thread would go in this direction...
 
Old 09-20-2020, 11:10 AM   #51
teckk
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I don't think that she deserves any respect at all. Alive or dead. She was a heinous criminal. She was an infanticide advocate that spent decades promoting violence against children, women and blacks.

She passed away "Peacefully" even though over 60 million human babies have been violently murdered in America due to abortion policies that Ginsburg helped advocate across the nation. Ginsburg refused to grant millions of children their own right to die peacefully, without medical violence being perpetrated against them, as she was a staunch advocate of partial birth abortions.

In partial birth abortions, a living human baby is partially birthed and then violently attacked by medical personnel who sever the child's spine with a scalpel, then proceed to harvest the baby's organs to be sold for profit, while planned parenthood officials laugh about wanting a Ferrari for it.

That is nothing more or less that human sacrifice to their pagan gods, and that is who Ginsburg was. Uncalled for you say? No, indelicate yes.

I've read several articles that said she is resting in peace now. What on earth would make you think that? I think that flames and screaming is probably more accurate.

And US Senators on the political left love this death cult. So the Dems will fight tooth and claw to stop Trump from getting another judge on the court. And the repubs are being hypocrites for doing the opposite of what they said about Garland, and they don't want to care for children after they are born anyway, such as with tax dollars.

How's that for addressing the real issues and giving real facts?
 
Old 09-20-2020, 12:08 PM   #52
michaelk
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You complain about bad media yet you believe all that made up crap from alt right sources.
 
Old 09-20-2020, 01:04 PM   #53
teckk
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Corona virus shots and people who say they won't get them. This is what happens when a large part of the population does not trust the government. Doesn't matter who is in charge. And does not trust the medical establishment either. That should be obvious.

We are suppose to have a government that governs by the consent of the governed. When that is not so, then you have riots in the streets, tea dumped in the harbor, and citizens that refuse their shots. A lying stinking media helps that too. When they open their mouth and you automatically assume that they are lying, and that for 40 years, who knows what's correct or not.

When the last US Admin passed the health care law. And mandated participation. The first year 30 million people said no! And did not get any. Do you recall that? I laughed when I heard that. Plus we knew that It was unlawful for the US government to force it's citizens to buy something.

Plus...how can you be sure if the type of mercury used in the vaccine is harmful or not if you don't trust what "they" say? Vaccines have proven to be a great saver of lives. The chicken pox vaccine is a good example of that. Lots of kids died from that in years past. But, vaccines also kill people. That has always been so. It saves 1 million but kills 20. That is judged to be worth it. Not if your kid is one of the 20.

Some of this that you are seeing is simply rebelling for the purpose of rebelling. "You aren't telling me what to do!"
 
Old 09-20-2020, 03:37 PM   #54
Hermani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teckk View Post
Some of this that you are seeing is simply rebelling for the purpose of rebelling. "You aren't telling me what to do!"
People are a little hot headed these days, it seems. COVID-19 did'nt make things better, as well. Personal freedom is under pressure right now because of the restrictions that any government just needs to take and it takes place all over the world. Measures of this kind are also not new, New York Staten Island is a testament to that. People can scream and cry but that does not change the situation: your personal freedom is always bound by the limit that it should not be detrimental to others - a lot tend to forget that last fact.

From across the pond it seems to me Trump did polarize US politics quite badly, on purpose or not. People seem to be either for or against him. And the political debate is not so much about an issue at hand but more about who is for and who then by definition is against.

What I can't see is why the Republicans put Trump forward again. To me it was clear why a lot of people did not want to vote for Hillary Clinton 4 years ago. Right now I can also imagine a lot of people that do vote Republican do not want to vote Trump again. Or are they?

I have seen a TV clip with people that lost everything in a hurricane; they had a lot of faith in Trump to help them. Not the government in general, not their governor, but Trump! Is this the way he'll be re-elected?
 
Old 09-20-2020, 05:02 PM   #55
teckk
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Yes, tribalism on steroids.
Quote:
From across the pond it seems to me Trump did polarize US politics quite badly
But Obama did not when he sicked the IRS on republicans? Or when he gave pallets of taxpayer cash to terrorists? Or when he tried to take over 1/6th of the US economy? Or the "Science" party denying basic grade school level biology. Telling parents that you have to let your teenage girls shower at school with teenage boys. Or the ones that say that they are girls. You don't have to answer, just my retort. Hence we got Trump.

Before that Bush Jr. created a domestic spy network that listened to every phone call that they wanted, captured every packet that crossed the internet. Invaded countries, engaged in nation building in nations that did not want built. We got Obama.

Before that, Clinton refused American students who had good grades entrance to medical schools to make room for foreign students. Some American kids actually had to go to school in Great Britain. We are still living with the repercussions of that. They did not go back, they stayed. That's not a racist remark. It's kind of important that you can understand the doctor when he speaks to you. Whitewatergate, travelgate, Monica, rape, sex assaults. We got Bush Jr.

Before that Bush Sr. said "Read my lips, no new taxes" Then he raised taxes substantially. We got Clinton.

Before that Ronald Reagan probably engaged in illegal arm sales to central America to help the side that "we" like. George Sr. slipped in on Reagan's coat tails.

And back a ways before that we had a vindictive weird man who spied on the other party, lied about it for months, had to resign. He knew that he had won the 1960 election, but for massive fraud in Chicago and LBJ's Texas, where more people voted Democrat in districts than even lived in the district. He went a little nutty, his VP took over, we got Carter.

And every step of the way. That bunch on TV attempted to divide us and make us more bitter. They were so proud of themselves. They brought down a president that they did not like. He did not like them either.

Not that we needed their help. The government indoctrination centers were doing a good job of destroying american culture and values, turning the children away from the parents, dividing the nation.

This has been simmering for a while. A pot with fire under it will eventually boil.

And if you think that you have seen anything yet. Wait. If Trump wins reelection...you have not seen bat crap crazy yet.
 
Old 09-20-2020, 07:01 PM   #56
michaelk
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Quote:
But Obama did not when he sicked the IRS on republicans?
While it happened on Obama's watch the internal audit found no connection between the administration and the IRS picking on conservative groups. In fact it found that the scandal was just due to poor management and it happened to groups on both sides.

Quote:
Or when he gave pallets of taxpayer cash to terrorists?
It was their money.

Quote:
Or when he tried to take over 1/6th of the US economy?
Not sure what you mean except that Obama's recovery act started the longest period of growth in history.

Don't know what you are referencing about grade school biology, except that as far as I know curriculum happens on the state versus the federal level.

Not going to say anything about LGBQT rights.

Quote:
Before that Bush Sr. said "Read my lips, no new taxes" Then he raised taxes substantially. We got Clinton.
Unfortunately, at the time Bush Sr, really did not have a choice. It was his integrity to recognize and do something versus kick the can down the road but knew it would cost him the election.

I do agree regardless of the election outcome it is going to get crazy.

The whole MMR mercury autism antivaxer thing was started by a "study" done by a doctor in England. IT was eventually discovered as an elaborate fraud but the damage was done. The doctor was discredited and no longer practicing.
 
Old 09-21-2020, 03:52 AM   #57
Hermani
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Originally Posted by teckk View Post
Yes, tribalism on steroids.

(...)

This has been simmering for a while. A pot with fire under it will eventually boil.

And if you think that you have seen anything yet. Wait. If Trump wins reelection...you have not seen bat crap crazy yet.
Today my newspaper reports that Joe Biden has no inspiration, he can get a difficult time to take on The Donald. And even more: both are old men. They should be visiting their grand children instead of going around trying to get elected President of the USA. Where is that 40-some or 50-some guy or girl that knows what is going on in both the young and the old? That has a vision of where the USA should be in 5 years time?

I have heard of the anger and unrest in "Trump country" where the middle class has wasted away and prospects are poor. The people that Hillary C with her head in her New York bubble called "deplorables". In the last 15 years I visited San Francisco twice and I the second time I was shocked by the visibility of poverty - while poor people tend to hide their financial woes. And this in a city where a lot of people earn a lot of money.

When financial wealth is not expressed as mean income but as median income, the USA still comes out almost at the top. So it isn't the amount of money most people make that causes the unrest, I presume, or is it?

You describe a failing leadership where every other President has done some things wrong. Has politics and politicians gotten too distant from their democratic roots? Is the political discussion still taking place on the Sunday morning breakfast table? In church or within policital parties?
 
Old 09-21-2020, 10:10 AM   #58
teckk
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Where is that 40-some or 50-some guy or girl that knows what is going on in both the young and the old? That has a vision of where the USA should be in 5 years time?
That's the question that "we" are asking. And "they" are not listening to. And you graciously left out the part of both of them being old sex offenders. Both have been touchy, feely, old men who got away with using their positions of power to uh... touch women without their consent. Multiple women have accused Joe Biden of that. The partisan media has tried to cover that up. And of course everyone on the planet heard about Trumps bus conversation.

Quote:
You describe a failing leadership where every other President has done some things wrong.
Not just wrong, for everybody is human. When Bill Clinton was accused of rape and sex assault, the national organization of women came out in front of the cameras and said, "It is more important for Bill to stay in office than to investigate these charges against him." And Hillary came out and called those women bimbos and trailer park trash. Which is one of the reasons that she could not get a large major of white women vote in 2016, at a time when women desperately want a woman president. And every time that happens, the other side is elected into power, and attempts to "pay back" the other side for what they did. It also lets us know that they are absolute fakes. They don't believe anything, it's just a means to an end.

If we lived in a country with an intelligent normal people, both Clinton and Trump would be morally disqualified from public office for life.

And then you might ask, "why aren't others running for office?" No sane person wants their name and family dragged through the sewer. The political climate is so poison that good honest people simply won't run. Only the hardest ideologues with a party machine helping them have a chance. We've had third party candidates try to run, the two part machine tries to put up road blocks in their way so they can't even get on the ballot.

Quote:
So it isn't the amount of money most people make that causes the unrest
No, Americans are spoiled, had the most of any people in history. And there is a reason for that, something drove that, and made that happen. It was not collectivism, where everyone labors and puts everything in to the pot, and an all powerful government gives out to each according to their need.

Quote:
Has politics and politicians gotten too distant from their democratic roots
My argument is that government needs to "get out", and only be allowed to do what it is allowed to do. Ronald Reagan came to office saying the scariest phrase in the english language is, "We are from the government and we are here to help." They have been successful in indoctrinating a whole generation of people into believing that government is a god and savior. They actually think that they are entitled to stuff because they are born. And they throw a fit when they don't get it. Another words, the citizenry vote for people who promise to give them the most out of the public funded treasury. That is what "Politics" have become.

Quote:
Is the political discussion still taking place on the Sunday morning breakfast table?
My answer is. I know of no greater dividing factor in the United States of America, that divides black against white, parents against children, men against women, left against right, than the public school system and the political partisan media.

"They" are so scared of not being able to indoctrinate the children, that they have tried every which way but loose to stop home schooling. Even though every study that you can find shows that home schooled kids do better on all of the major area's of study. They know more, they are better educated. Not right wing educated, they can actually find Alaska on a world map without looking in the gulf of Mexico for it.

You almost can't have a political discussion with family members that are indoctrinated zombies. It's so bad that people won't go to Christmas or Thanksgiving with the relatives any more. So no, we are not having political discussions anymore. We are the Hatfield's and McCoys.

Quote:
In church or within policital parties?
Churches are not allowed to make political statements even in their sermons. If they do then they loose their 501c status. In case you don't know what that is, it means they would have to pay tax on their donations.
I won't even start on the illegality of that.

I realize my answers are all over the place. There is just not enough space or time to talk about this mess, so I just hit a few points that kind of relay the mess.

And yes, I am biased too. And most probably have some incorrect info in my head. I catch that every now and then.

Someone said that you are repeating alt right crap.

And to that my question is: What do you do, when you don't trust a word that a national partisan media says, because you have watched them lie and twist and pervert for decades? They are still repeating the lie that Trump did not condemn the white suprems at Charlottesville. He most certainly did.

If you are a curious person, you try and put together, the best that you can, information that you find, from everywhere you can, and try and decided what you think the facts actually are. And then sometimes, years later, you see where NBC was telling the truth all along. But since you can't believe a word that they say, like all liars, well...
 
Old 09-21-2020, 10:20 AM   #59
sevendogsbsd
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Very well said: "If we lived in a country with an intelligent normal people, both Clinton and Trump would be morally disqualified from public office for life."
 
Old 09-21-2020, 12:15 PM   #60
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Americans say blah blah blah.

More fuel for this fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK2FBEpmlUo

Attitudes are like age groups.

You get a different one depending on the age of the re-sponder.

Pretty much dead meat after 70. Bullet proof at 20-30.
Never tell a scooter tramp what to do.

You won't like their answer.
 
  


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