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Old 12-14-2017, 08:40 PM   #46
dogpatch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel! It's where the parliament sits, where the president lives. . .
Hats off to hazel. Moreover, as head of state, Trump simply has the authority to recognize other states and their capitals. Period. He doesn't have to consult or bind himself to opinion polls, academics, congress, or even LQ gurus. Personally, i am heartened - and surprised - by this news (but then, Trump doesn't need my approval either)
 
Old 12-15-2017, 05:05 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Correct...the phrase is mine but I think implied by your Us vs/ Them POV. So choose whatever defining phrase you like. I'd just like tyo see your definition of what constitutes the sides in conflict. For example is it Nationalistic? Political? Cultural? Religious? You tell me.
It's not that simple. You could call it sectarian under a religious banner.

I don't have an "us vs them" point of view. The problem with this kind of medium is that we can make interpretations and assumptions all day long and still hit nowhere near the mark...

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Thanks but still I have no answer from you as to whether any group or any one is acting to in effect dispossess any people of their land/homes? Exactly how do you view the importance of where the line is drawn or what is considered The Capital of a nation whose very existence you apparently choose to ignore/dismiss/negate etc.
UNSCRs 446 and 465 alone would seem to indicate that the more powerful and US backed, Israeli state has been actively appropriating Palestinian land, as well as land annexed during the Six Day War and building Jewish settlements on those lands.

It's an indisputable fact that these settlements were built in the West Bank, the Gaza strip and the Golan Heights - to international and UN condemnation. It's also a fact that Palestinian land was seized and cleared to build the West Bank Barrier.

Last edited by cynwulf; 12-15-2017 at 07:45 AM. Reason: typo/wording/clarity
 
Old 12-15-2017, 06:40 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogpatch View Post
Hats off to hazel. Moreover, as head of state, Trump simply has the authority to recognize other states and their capitals. Period. He doesn't have to consult or bind himself to opinion polls, academics, congress, or even LQ gurus. Personally, i am heartened - and surprised - by this news (but then, Trump doesn't need my approval either)
Its not the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital which is the problem. Its the lack of recognition of Jerusalem as Palestine's capital which is the problem. West Jerusalem supposed to be Israeli and East Jerusalem supposed to be Palestinian. Trump tried to backtrack saying the final borders haven't been decided which will be with negotiations. Every year Israel adds settlements in what was supposed to be a Palestinian state. Anyway, I think your country should take over the funding of the Israelis and Palestinians, as well as the peace process! We will include Trump. We will throw in terrorist sponsoring Middle East allies for no charge.
 
Old 12-15-2017, 08:02 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
Its not the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital which is the problem. Its the lack of recognition of Jerusalem as Palestine's capital which is the problem. West Jerusalem supposed to be Israeli and East Jerusalem supposed to be Palestinian. Trump tried to backtrack saying the final borders haven't been decided which will be with negotiations. Every year Israel adds settlements in what was supposed to be a Palestinian state. Anyway, I think your country should take over the funding of the Israelis and Palestinians, as well as the peace process! We will include Trump. We will throw in terrorist sponsoring Middle East allies for no charge.
Unfortunately, the people who actually live there had this dividing-line imposed upon them following World War II, in much the same way that the original territorial divisions had been imposed following World War I. They don't recognize those divisions.

The USA doesn't have to parley with a territorial dispute in choosing where to put its embassy, nor which side of a divided city it might choose. The CEO and the Secretary of State really can choose to do whatever they see as being in USA's interests.

Or maybe "the Israelites" could just solve the entire problem in the manner that their forefathers once did: go into battle, knowing that "the LORD will deliver their enemies into our hands," and exterminate "every living thing" from the land. Problem solved. No men, no women, no children, no cattle, no fish in fish-tanks, no cats, no dogs, no insects.

Or maybe the two parties can find a way to reconcile, and maybe re-draw the lines that were drawn for them by the British and the French after the Ottoman Empire had been consumed, and then by the UN, against the opposition of every country in that region. If these people want to make peace, they are going to have to be the ones to do it, and yet I am quite sure that any such moves would encounter stiff Euro-American opposition by countries who might fear a re-emergence of the Ottoman Empire and the possible loss of ... Saudi oil, which is still given-away in "sweetheart deals" to Europe and beyond.

When Libya invaded Kuwait, the move was crushed: Europeans want those boundaries to remain exactly where they set them.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 12-15-2017 at 08:04 AM.
 
Old 12-15-2017, 10:32 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
The USA doesn't have to parley with a territorial dispute in choosing where to put its embassy, nor which side of a divided city it might choose. The CEO and the Secretary of State really can choose to do whatever they see as being in USA's interests.
How is "Port Authority bomb suspect said attack was payback for violence in Gaza" good for America's interest?
Quote:
Akayed Ullah, a Bangladeshi immigrant living in Brooklyn, allegedly told cops that he wanted vengeance for attacks in the Palestinian territory — where four people have been killed by Israeli forces amid violent protests and airstrikes since President Trump declared Jerusalem the capital of Israel last week, CNN reports, citing a police source.
https://nypost.com/2017/12/11/port-a...lence-in-gaza/

I would much rather the people who were in that bomb blast not be hurt.

Do you believe American foreign policy is worth the cost in blood and treasure? I would like everyone to make peace but I'm really interested in the US stop being a target in their war. The Lord could aid the US by helping Israel be self sufficient.

Philip Weiss said that the Jerusalem move happened because of lobbying by one of the Republican Party's owners: Sheldon Adelson.
 
Old 12-15-2017, 11:13 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
It's not that simple. You could call it sectarian under a religious banner.
First, Thank you for a more direct answer, but could you explain what or how there is a sectarian component?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
UNSCRs 446 and 465 alone would seem to indicate that the more powerful and US backed, Israeli state has been actively appropriating Palestinian land, as well as land annexed during the Six Day War and building Jewish settlements on those lands.

It's an indisputable fact that these settlements were built in the West Bank, the Gaza strip and the Golan Heights - to international and UN condemnation. It's also a fact that Palestinian land was seized and cleared to build the West Bank Barrier.
Please forgive what may be my ignorance of details in these matters but aren't those Resolutions just a re-confirm of the original post WW2 creation of the Israeli State from 1949? and wasn't the vote unanimous excepting abstention by Norway, the UK, and the USA? So far I see no new (since 1949) dispossession of anyone. Am I mistaken?
 
Old 12-15-2017, 12:56 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
How is "Port Authority bomb suspect said attack was payback for violence in Gaza" good for America's interest?

https://nypost.com/2017/12/11/port-a...lence-in-gaza/

I would much rather the people who were in that bomb blast not be hurt.
So would I. But I could have just as easily set of a bomb because "I don't like Microsoft Windows." Or, as is sometimes the case, for no discernible reason at all. A country can't set its international political decisions based on fear that some nut-bag might not like it, because there's always one more nut-bag.

These people are objecting to dividing-lines that they don't recognize, which were imposed upon them almost 100 years ago by still-existing countries that want many of those lines to remain in place ... such as those which define Saudi Oil-rabia. Israel was essentially created because Britain wanted to be rid of them and wanted to try to create a compromise between two equally-aggressive groups of residents. It obviously didn't work. Kuwait was invaded because its invaders don't recognize its territorial boundary (from the same post-WW1 hatchet-job), and oil in general from this region would be more expensive to outsiders if the people who control it weren't walled-off from one another by boundary lines they didn't draw.
 
Old 12-15-2017, 03:34 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
So would I. But I could have just as easily set of a bomb because "I don't like Microsoft Windows." Or, as is sometimes the case, for no discernible reason at all. A country can't set its international political decisions based on fear that some nut-bag might not like it, because there's always one more nut-bag.

These people are objecting to dividing-lines that they don't recognize, which were imposed upon them almost 100 years ago by still-existing countries that want many of those lines to remain in place ... such as those which define Saudi Oil-rabia. Israel was essentially created because Britain wanted to be rid of them and wanted to try to create a compromise between two equally-aggressive groups of residents. It obviously didn't work. Kuwait was invaded because its invaders don't recognize its territorial boundary (from the same post-WW1 hatchet-job), and oil in general from this region would be more expensive to outsiders if the people who control it weren't walled-off from one another by boundary lines they didn't draw.
You would do a suicide attack because of Microsoft Windows? ISIS is using Jerusalem as recruitment propaganda now.

If keeping the borders in the region with military power except for Israel who gets to define its own borders is so important then why isn't the rest of the world bankrupting itself playing with the Salafi Jihadist in the sand? The US has oil. If low oil prices was such a big deal the rest of the world would join in to keep the prices down. Saddam invaded Kuwait out of desperation because it needed higher oil prices to rebuild after the war with Iran. Also the US has aided terrorist in Syria with an attempt to redraw the map so it doesn't really care about boundaries that much. It was only after Russia came in that the Salafi Jihadist started losing its territorial gains. President Trump is the one that finally stopped the US from supporting terror in Syria. It was American policy to create the Islamic State:
Quote:
“THE WEST, GULF COUNTRIES, AND TURKEY [WHO] SUPPORT THE [SYRIAN] OPPOSITION… THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF ESTABLISHING A DECLARED OR UNDECLARED SALAFIST PRINCIPALITY IN EASTERN SYRIA (HASAKA AND DER ZOR), AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE SUPPORTING POWERS TO THE OPPOSITION WANT, IN ORDER TO ISOLATE THE SYRIAN REGIME…”.
https://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/...syrian-regime/

Also the US isn't going to be able to keep the Arabs down for much longer: "CBO: Debt to hit 101 percent of GDP by 2039:"
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/24...of-gdp-by-2039

What will the US have to show for it in the end? A bunch of dead and crippled Americans, a legacy of destruction, a lower standard of living, and a police state.
 
Old 12-15-2017, 04:57 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
First, Thank you for a more direct answer, but could you explain what or how there is a sectarian component?
The very definition of sectarianism should be enough to explain that. Sectarian violence in Mandate Palestine preceded the creation of the State of Israel. Various "pogroms" drove Jewish immigration to Mandate Palestine even during Ottoman times. So called Zionist paramilitaries which operated before and during World War II and which were ultimately absorbed into the Israeli Defence Force, carried out terrorist atrocities much like Paltestinian paramilitaries have in more recent times.

As ever, the "good" and the "bad" really depends on which side of the wall you live on. More recent "Islamist" terror is about some warped perversion of a religion - as a means to an end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Please forgive what may be my ignorance of details in these matters but aren't those Resolutions just a re-confirm of the original post WW2 creation of the Israeli State from 1949? and wasn't the vote unanimous excepting abstention by Norway, the UK, and the USA? So far I see no new (since 1949) dispossession of anyone. Am I mistaken?
Those resolutions specifically refer to settlement expansion, for example:

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unisp...5?OpenDocument

Of note is:
Quote:
7. Calls upon all States not to provide Israel with any assistance to be used specifically in connexion with settlements in the occupied territories;
 
Old 12-16-2017, 03:17 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I do totally agree with you about the fact that every US President bar Trump, has not done what Trump has done. I also totally agree with you that if this doesn't kill the peace process, it will come very close to it (and in all likelihood set it back for, probably decades). And moreover, that it is the wrong decision (and one of the worst ones I've ever seen), and it is in no way in the interests of peace.
amen to that.
and no need to apologize for anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
The policy of the US has effectively been one of appeasement, but, "this really isn't 'our' war." We can put our embassy anywhere we want to, and if someone wants to make that decision to be a chess-move in their game, that's their interpretation, not ours. America would just like for its embassy to be close to a big airport.
thank you for proving my point.
if only reality were as simple as this. people who constantly simplify things in this way should not become presidents.
and it has very much always been "your war".

Last edited by ondoho; 12-16-2017 at 03:19 AM.
 
Old 12-16-2017, 06:27 AM   #56
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General Mattis and Rex Tillerson were against Trump's Jerusalem move: http://www.theamericanconservative.c...usalem-israel/

Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
amen to that.
and no need to apologize for anything.


thank you for proving my point.
if only reality were as simple as this. people who constantly simplify things in this way should not become presidents.
and it has very much always been "your war".
In defense of Trump. He did stop arming Salafi Jihadist in Syria. Also he hasn't started nuclear war with Russia. Trump was the lesser evil according to one of the candidates that should have won:
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/u...-2016/1.747294

Hillary wanted to risk starting a nuclear war with Russia to defend Al Qaeda in Syria by establishing a no fly zone while Russian planes were in the sky. Because of that I chose Trump over Gary Johnson and Jill Stein. Hillary had me convinced that she was going to start war with Russia. We may still get nuclear war with North Korea. A war with Russia may still accidentally start over the skies of Syria. Trump attacked one airfield in Syria. Hillary wanted to attack them all. Hillary is owned by Haim Saban so US policy on Israel wouldn't be much different except for the Jerusalem move. The Iran deal would be more tricky for her because it was the signature foreign policy achievement of Obama. She was boxed in so Trump will more likely start a war with Iran on behalf of Israel and the Sunni autocrats. The only Americans that are going to prevent Trump from doing anything really bad are found in the US military and intelligence agencies. The report that stopped Bush's war with Iran: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...oryId=16846056

Admiral Mullen warned Israel not to stage another USS Liberty like attack to drag the US into war with Iran: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/1...heros-passing/
"Admiral Fallon's 'No Iran War' Line Angered White House:" https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...ed-white-house

They don't always work together. The US military talked the CIA into giving the terrorist inferior weapons because it would cost them less than shipping weapons from Libya and to help Assad. The US military knew that Turkey staged a false flag attack using chemical weapons to get the US into war in Syria. Hillary wanted the US to go all in and remove Assad but Obama was dragging his legs. The US military was actively sabotaging what little he was doing against Assad. Trump comes in office and stops the CIA's program.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymou...d-the-rat-line
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymou...ry-to-military

One of the crimes Russia Today engaged in was to have a third party debate with candidates that are intentionally ignored by the US media and thus the US voter. The US media is now working with Silicon Valley to censor alternative media. I don't see how the US can elect someone that isn't beholden to corporations, foreign powers, and the military industrial complex. They don't let them get on stage. If they do its in the debates of the two dominant parties, they are given less time than everyone else, and the media undermines them in the case of Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich. In the case of Bernie Sanders the Democrat Party undermined him so Hillary would be the Democrat nominee. Obama and Trump are probably the most peaceful candidates Americans are allowed to have. They weren't the ones that the elite wanted but Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were kryptonite in comparison. You can put in someone like Hillary Clinton who is very knowledgeable but it doesn't matter because they only have evil intentions.

Last edited by RadicalDreamer; 12-16-2017 at 06:37 AM.
 
Old 12-16-2017, 07:03 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
You would do a suicide attack because of Microsoft Windows? ISIS is using Jerusalem as recruitment propaganda now.
Only "Windows 10," maybe.

Oh, wait. Windows 10 is already a bomb!

- - - - -

Seriously, you can talk about "in the interests of peace" in this region all day long, and there will never be peace there. The occupants don't recognize the dividing-lines that were imposed upon them, while the powers that imposed them still exist and are still there. We also observe that there was inter-tribal violence before those lines were created: the British were literally trying to find a compromise solution to "keep them away from each others' throats," and they met with no more success than King Nebuchadnezzar II did. Face it: nothing is going to change things until all of those people recognize that they have common interests (and homeland), and until they purpose first, among themselves, that "it shall now be done." No one else can do this for them. Unless and until that happens, we're all just barking at frogs.

- - - - -

Quote:
One of the crimes Russia Today engaged in was to have a third party debate with candidates that are intentionally ignored by the US media and thus the US voter. [...]
Uhh, would you say that if the BBC were the ones that carried the story? Would you call it a "crime" then? The BBC is a state-owned media producer, also. It's not "meddling," and certainly not a crime, for a foreign-owned media outlet to be publishing stories and even buying advertisements in this i-n-t-e-r-n-e-t age. It's, "campaigning!" And anyone anywhere in the world is entitled to do it – and technically able to do it thanks to the global network.

The remainder of that off-topic paragraph is merely a "rant." I did select one of those third-party candidates, and I do think that "my vote mattered." The vast majority of the States elected the first candidate that this country has ever in its entire history been presented with who was not "a career politician" or "a retired Army General." And the "career politicians" are still sore about it. But, that man has been going to work every day and doing exactly what the people elected him to do, and that's a lot more than you can say about his predecessors.

And, he was also the very first President to confront North Korea, to not "appease" them or pretend that nothing's terribly wrong. He forced the rest of the world, through the United Nations, to respond. The UN Security Council has responded unanimously, three times now, and the members of that Council represent the strongest unified accumulation of both economic and military force that has ever existed on Earth. Today Russia, China, the US, and several other countries are very-patiently (but with drawn swords) pursuing negotiations. As Rex Tillerson put it, "we can start out talking about the color and the shape of the table." As Rex carries "the carrot," Trump keeps his hand on "the stick." There will be no more appeasement, this time – and, there won't be war.

Someone in North Korea is going to figure out that the game is up, and it may or may not be the psychopaths who are presently in control of the government. Someone's going to realize that those psychos will not be allowed to start the World War III that they apparently so-desperately want. Perhaps the people of North Korea will be liberated from their clutches, after having suffered for half a century at their wicked hands. We shall soon see. (And I here use the term, "psychopath," in the clinical sense.)

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 12-16-2017 at 07:37 AM.
 
Old 12-16-2017, 08:31 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Only "Windows 10," maybe.

Oh, wait. Windows 10 is already a bomb!

- - - - -

Seriously, you can talk about "in the interests of peace" in this region all day long, and there will never be peace there. The occupants don't recognize the dividing-lines that were imposed upon them, while the powers that imposed them still exist and are still there. We also observe that there was inter-tribal violence before those lines were created: the British were literally trying to find a compromise solution to "keep them away from each others' throats," and they met with no more success than King Nebuchadnezzar II did. Face it: nothing is going to change things until all of those people recognize that they have common interests (and homeland), and until they purpose first, among themselves, that "it shall now be done." No one else can do this for them. Unless and until that happens, we're all just barking at frogs.

- - - - -
The US intervention in the Middle East makes the US less safe. All the US has done in the last few decades is to destabilize the Middle East. They don't have to stop fighting over there but I see no reason why the US must use every last ounce of its power to fight with them too. We are protected by two oceans. You are projecting your own issues onto me. I want the US out of the Middle East or at least have policies that cause the least amount of blow back. That is what I am talking about. I would like everyone to get along but I'm an American citizen. I care as much about the survival and well being of the United States as people care about Israel. The cheap oil prices actually hurt America's native oil industry. Saudi Arabia kept the price low to hurt us. The US must become energy independent.

Is Italy and Britain better off since they played in the sand with the Sicarri and Irgun? Is Britain better off today having to deal with Irgun. Is Italy better off today for having to deal with the Sicarri?


Quote:
Uhh, would you say that if the BBC were the ones that carried the story? Would you call it a "crime" then? The BBC is a state-owned media producer, also. It's not "meddling," and certainly not a crime, for a foreign-owned media outlet to be publishing stories and even buying advertisements in this i-n-t-e-r-n-e-t age. It's, "campaigning!" And anyone anywhere in the world is entitled to do it – and technically able to do it thanks to the global network.
I was just pointing out the propaganda against RT. All RT does is pretty much regurgitate neglected and censored American voices. I am sick and tired of foreigners manipulating the American Empire. I think they all should be registered as foreign agents. I think disloyal Americans who work for them like General Flynn and like these monsters should also register: https://28pages.org/2017/11/08/iowa-...ed-for-saudis/


Quote:
The remainder of that off-topic paragraph is merely a "rant." I did select one of those third-party candidates, and I do think that "my vote mattered." The vast majority of the States elected the first candidate that this country has ever in its entire history been presented with who was not "a career politician" or "a retired Army General." And the "career politicians" are still sore about it. But, that man has been going to work every day and doing exactly what the people elected him to do, and that's a lot more than you can say about his predecessors.
I explained some of the power factions in the US Empire and showed proof that they exist. A president doesn't necessarily get his way. I pointed to an official declassified DIA document that showed that the policy of the US and its allies was to create the Islamic State. Then I explained how the US military screwed over Obama on Syria to protect Assad while providing links to Seymour Hersh who explained it in detail. Its not so simple to just vote for someone that knows more about policy than Donald Trump. Hillary is more knowledgeable but she is far more evil.

Quote:
And, he was also the very first President to confront North Korea, to not "appease" them or pretend that nothing's terribly wrong. He forced the rest of the world, through the United Nations, to respond. The UN Security Council has responded unanimously, three times now, and the members of that Council represent the strongest unified accumulation of both economic and military force that has ever existed on Earth. Today Russia, China, the US, and several other countries are very-patiently (but with drawn swords) pursuing negotiations. As Rex Tillerson put it, "we can start out talking about the color and the shape of the table." As Rex carries "the carrot," Trump keeps his hand on "the stick." There will be no more appeasement, this time – and, there won't be war.

Someone in North Korea is going to figure out that the game is up, and it may or may not be the psychopaths who are presently in control of the government. Someone's going to realize that those psychos will not be allowed to start the World War III that they apparently so-desperately want. Perhaps the people of North Korea will be liberated from their clutches, after having suffered for half a century at their wicked hands. We shall soon see. (And I here use the term, "psychopath," in the clinical sense.)
Clinton made a deal, Congress and Bush screwed it up. The US cannot manage to maintain a deal. It promised Russia not to bring the former Soviet nations into NATO and now NATO is pretty much on their doorstep. The US made a deal with Qaddafi and overthrew him. The Iran deal is the latest casualty. What Trump is doing may work but it doesn't change the fact that North Korea has reason to worry because the US is regime change happy and can't keep a deal. Also the US military doesn't seem to be keen on having a war with North Korea because of the casualties in South Korea.

Last edited by RadicalDreamer; 12-16-2017 at 08:40 AM.
 
Old 12-16-2017, 09:22 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
I was just pointing out the propaganda against RT. All RT does is pretty much regurgitate neglected and censored American voices. I am sick and tired of foreigners manipulating the American Empire. I think they all should be registered as foreign agents. I think disloyal Americans who work for them like General Flynn and like these monsters should also register: https://28pages.org/2017/11/08/iowa-...ed-for-saudis/
So, the BBC should also register as a "foreign agent," and maybe I should be arrested if I surf to bbc.com? In other words, "Fox News" is approved by my government, the rest of the world is "foreign agents," and it could be a crime if I surf there? Or, if any "foreign" web site publishes a story that isn't "approved?" Just what country do you think you're talking about?

There is no 'American Empire.' Maybe some people in Washington, DC would like to think of themselves as "imperialists," and maybe some Iowa Governors, as well. But the world is big and the world is interconnected and you're never going to shove that genie back into its bottle. The United States is neither the biggest country out there, nor the baddest, nor the economically strongest. It is certainly important, but it does not rule the world even if some of its people think it does. Or, should. Or, must.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
Hillary is more knowledgeable but she is far more evil.
I can't speak to that. She's out of the picture – for good. She wasn't given eight years to work evil. The majority of the States saw her for what she was and rejected her. And they did it without any help from "Russia."

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadicalDreamer View Post
Clinton made a deal, Congress and Bush screwed it up. The US cannot manage to maintain a deal. It promised Russia not to bring the former Soviet nations into NATO and now NATO is pretty much on their doorstep. The US made a deal with Qaddafi and overthrew him. The Iran deal is the latest casualty. What Trump is doing may work but it doesn't change the fact that North Korea has reason to worry because the US is regime change happy and can't keep a deal. Also the US military doesn't seem to be keen on having a war with North Korea because of the casualties in South Korea.
Welcome to the real world – where actual causes and effects are consistently more complicated than you repeatedly suggest in this paragraph. Maybe you should start looking at some of those "foreign agent" web sites. For example, Russia is almost next-door to North Korea, and within far-shorter ICBM-range than any territory of the USA. Why don't you read what their web-site actually says? Consider, for example, this SUBVERSIVE FOREIGN-AGENT story: US, North Korea should start talks without preconditions. It's short, so I'll quote its DANGEROUS CONTENT to you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputy Foreign minister Sergey Ryabkov:
Moscow regrets that neither Washington nor Pyongyang is prepared to start negotiations with the other without preconditions, Deputy Foreign minister Sergey Ryabkov said. This prevents any progress in resolving the deteriorating crisis in the Korean Peninsula, potentially leading to an uncontrolled escalation, he explained. The minister called on both parties to end an “intimidation race”, saying this path leads to a dead end. “We have been warning against such an approach for a long time and insist that it is not simply counterproductive, but dangerous,” the Russian diplomat said.
Oh, excuse me. The police just drove up ...

Believe it or not, "the Russians have diplomats, too." As does China. And there are a lot of diplomats from all around the globe right now who are working the "carrot" angle simultaneously, even as their respective military commanders are making assessments, calculations and plans. If the North Korean regime commits yet-another act of intercontinental psychopathy, despite all efforts, then of course that eventuality must be prepared-for. There is zero benefit for anyone to seek territorial ambitions, but the threat posed by psychopaths must be neutralized ... peacefully, if possible.

Remember that "the intercontinental ballistic missile" would be the primary weapon in this kind of war, and it probably would "go nuclear." Only one rogue nation on Earth appears to want that right now. And, no country on Earth would be safe, nor protected from the fallout which would rain down on the globe for hundreds of years to come. The United States "flushed out" these evildoers after decades of appeasement, and forced them to reveal themselves for just what they really are. The United Nations are responding. Unanimously.

- - -

The Internet is one thing that these "would-be Imperialists" never really considered. They liked it best when everyone in America looked at their black-and-white television sets (three channels to choose from ...) and, when "Uncle Walter" told us "that's the way it is," we believed him. They're enraged that people in foreign lands had any sort of opinion as to who should be the next President of the United States, and that they had the capability to make those opinions known directly to American voters. Truth is, they're fearful of their own continued hold on power in an era where the President of the United States very-routinely "tweets" and thereby communicates directly to the American people – and, to the entire world. They don't comprehend that the world is by now accustomed to it.

I'm afraid that my Grandfather was also one of those "Americans who was manipulated by a Foreign Empire," fifty years ago, when he listened to a shortwave radio every night to pick up the BBC(!) World Service! One day the SS State Security Police showed up at his door wearing their jack-boots, and took away both him and his subversive radio. I never saw him again. He should have known that it's illegal in America for anyone to receive any information from other than American™ sources approved by One Of Two Political Parties ... or, that it might soon be.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 12-16-2017 at 09:41 AM.
 
Old 12-16-2017, 10:21 AM   #60
RadicalDreamer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
So, the BBC should also register as a "foreign agent," and maybe I should be arrested if I surf to bbc.com? In other words, "Fox News" is approved by my government, the rest of the world is "foreign agents," and it could be a crime if I surf there? Or, if any "foreign" web site publishes a story that isn't "approved?" Just what country do you think you're talking about?
Actually Fox News should register for being owned by an Australian fascist. RT registered, so why not the rest?

Quote:
There is no 'American Empire.' Maybe some people in Washington, DC would like to think of themselves as "imperialists," and maybe some Iowa Governors, as well. But the world is big and the world is interconnected and you're never going to shove that genie back into its bottle. The United States is neither the biggest country out there, nor the baddest, nor the economically strongest. It is certainly important, but it does not rule the world even if some of its people think it does. Or, should. Or, must.
American Hegemon then.



Quote:
I can't speak to that. She's out of the picture – for good. She wasn't given eight years to work evil. The majority of the States saw her for what she was and rejected her. And they did it without any help from "Russia."
I don't think there is a war she hasn't been in favor of in the last 3 decades. She is complicit in what happened in Iraq, Libya, and Syria: https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/02...llary-clinton/


Quote:
Welcome to the real world – where actual causes and effects are consistently more complicated than you repeatedly suggest in this paragraph. Maybe you should start looking at some of those "foreign agent" web sites. For example, Russia is almost next-door to North Korea, and within far-shorter ICBM-range than any territory of the USA. Why don't you read what their web-site actually says? Consider, for example, this SUBVERSIVE FOREIGN-AGENT story: US, North Korea should start talks without preconditions. It's short, so I'll quote its DANGEROUS CONTENT to you!

Oh, excuse me. The police just drove up ...
I brought the RT thing up to make a point about how third parties are being shafted. I think you are just so eager to argue with someone that you cannot pin point so you attack phantoms. I'd like American traitors register. Kushner and Flynn should be punished under the Logan Act. Bush and Obama should be tried for war crimes. There are people in the Obama administration who should be charged under anti-terror laws. The Israel lobby should register. The other domestic lobbies and individuals who lobby for foreign powers should register. That is all. I think the whole Russia-gate thing is silly. A few thousand dollars in social media decided the US election is an absurd argument that the anti-Trump faction is peddling.

Quote:
Believe it or not, "the Russians have diplomats, too." As does China. And there are a lot of diplomats from all around the globe right now who are working the "carrot" angle simultaneously, even as their respective military commanders are making assessments, calculations and plans. If the North Korean regime commits yet-another act of intercontinental psychopathy, despite all efforts, then of course that eventuality must be prepared-for. There is zero benefit for anyone to seek territorial ambitions, but the threat posed by psychopaths must be neutralized ... peacefully, if possible.

Remember that "the intercontinental ballistic missile" would be the primary weapon in this kind of war, and it probably would "go nuclear." Only one rogue nation on Earth appears to want that right now. And, no country on Earth would be safe, nor protected from the fallout which would rain down on the globe for hundreds of years to come. The United States "flushed out" these evildoers after decades of appeasement, and forced them to reveal themselves for just what they really are. The United Nations are responding.
North Korea would be destroyed if it attacked the United States. The US already killed 10% of North Korea's population via firebombing. The nukes are a deterrent because the US is regime change happy and its deals don't seem to survive. If the US attacks North Korea first there will be another Korean war where China and the US fight again. If the US fails to get China to act then North Korea is going to stay nuclear I think. The price for China for not acting is that its neighbors are going to become more militarily equipped to challenge its regional ambitions. Japan is already seriously considering changing its peace constitution. There is interest in South Korea for Korean reunification. I too would very much like North Korea to denuclearize.

Quote:
The Internet is one thing that these "would-be Imperialists" never really considered. They liked it best when everyone in America looked at their black-and-white television sets (three channels to choose from ...) and, when "Uncle Walter" told us "that's the way it is," we believed him. They're enraged that people in foreign lands had any sort of opinion as to who should be the next President of the United States, and that they had the capability to make those opinions known directly to American voters. Truth is, they're fearful of their own continued hold on power in an era where the President of the United States very-routinely "tweets" and thereby communicates directly to the American people – and, to the entire world. They don't comprehend that the world is by now accustomed to it.
They are imperialist. I think it was just a scam to weaken and overthrow Trump.

Quote:
The fear grew that Comey and other senior officials in the U.S. intelligence community had concluded last year that neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump was a suitable future president, albeit for different reasons. I’m told that Clinton was seen as dangerously hawkish and Trump as dangerously unqualified, opinions privately shared by then-President Barack Obama.

So, according to this account, plans were made last summer to damage both Clinton and Trump, with the hope of putting a more stable and less risky person in the Oval Office – with key roles in this scheme played by Comey, CIA Director John Brennan and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper.
https://consortiumnews.com/2017/05/1...ep-state-coup/

I've heard a former CIA consultant by the name of Chalmers Johnson in a talk about a decade ago saying that he was aware of a cabal of senior US military officers considering a military coup if there was war with Iran. He says the US has an "Empire of Bases." So far Trump hasn't gone all the way on Iran.

Last edited by RadicalDreamer; 12-16-2017 at 10:22 AM.
 
  


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