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Old 11-07-2020, 02:11 PM   #76
Ser Olmy
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Originally Posted by michaelk View Post
I would imagine that Trump will ask for a recount which he is entitled and most likely not change the results.
Look on the bright side: The Trump Campaign will have to pay for the recount.

That means extra money (and probably some pizzas) to a bunch of election workers.

It shouldn't take long, and afterwards everybody will have to agree on the results.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 02:17 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
Outside the big cities, people in rural Nigeria live in huts. Anything wrong with that? Can we not say that?

And yes, after seeing the U.S., they probably won't want to go back. In fact, after seeing the U.S. on TV, some Nigerians have traveled to Central America just to join in the "caravans" of people wanting to enter the U.S.
Oddly enough, people were saying exactly the same about American soldiers in 1918.

"How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm
"Now that they've seen Paree?"

Obviously most Europeans saw Americans as country yokels. I don't remember anyone saying it was racist though.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 02:25 PM   #78
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Keep in mind that seeing the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism is an extremely recent development; the result of relentless pressure from activists.
No. The Confederate flag and Confederate monuments as a symbol of racism depends on the color of your skin and where you live (in the US). (I am sorry if this might be offensive to anyone) The fact that the BLM and activists have made it an issue is due to all of the shootings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...te_battle_flag

Quote:
The battle flag was never adopted by the Confederate Congress, never flew over any state capitols during the Confederacy, and was never officially used by Confederate veterans' groups. The flag probably would have been relegated to Civil War museums if it had not been resurrected by the resurgent KKK and used by Southern Dixiecrats during the 1948 presidential election.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 02:32 PM   #79
Ser Olmy
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No. The Confederate flag and Confederate monuments as a symbol of racism depends on the color of your skin and where you live (in the US). (I am sorry if this might be offensive to anyone) The fact that the BLM and activists have made it an issue is due to all of the shootings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...te_battle_flag
You should read the article you just linked to. It's from Wikipedia, and as such it's not something you can use as a source of anything, but it does contain some quotes that are sourced.

For instance, it states that Tom Petty had no problem with the Confederate flag in 1985, but in 2015 he'd come to the realization that it was just like a swastika, and had always been horrible and problematic. Strange that no-one seemed to react to his use of it back in '85, then.

I have a few albums that feature the Confederate flag on the cover. One is by an American black artist. I don't think he chose that cover because he was/is extremely ignorant, or a "race traitor", or a self-hating white supremacist.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 02:56 PM   #80
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One thing that the wokerati never seem to understand is that you can't apply the standards of the present to the past. If you do, you just end up looking like an idiot.

For example, when I was growing up in the UK, the N-word was already seen as rude and nasty when used directly to a person, but it occurred in a number of traditional songs and rhymes which we learned as children, including a widely-used counting rhyme called "Eeny meeny miny mo" without anyone protesting about it. Of course no one actually told us what the word meant. I remember that I tried to work out the meaning from the context of one American ditty and concluded that it must be a four-legged animal, most probably a cow!

The polite word for black people in those days was "coloured" which is considered horribly racist today.

Like H E Bates said, "The past is another country. They do things differently there."

Last edited by hazel; 11-07-2020 at 02:57 PM.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 03:05 PM   #81
michaelk
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Tom Petty is white. Activism was still at its infancy. Black people did not speak out like they do now. I don't know what the black artist was thinking.

In the context of "When the looting starts, the shooting starts." dates back to 1967 civil rights when Miami police chief Walter Headley a known bigot said the phrase during a hearing about crime and talking about young black people. Trump claims he knows knows not where he heard the saying but saying the phrase in the same content was deliberate IMHO.

I am an idiot...

Lots of sayings (again I am sorry...)
Sell down the river
Master bedroom.
Peanut gallery
Uppity
Cakewalk
Call a spade a spade

Last edited by michaelk; 11-07-2020 at 03:09 PM.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 03:27 PM   #82
Ser Olmy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelk View Post
Tom Petty is white.
And you're not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelk View Post
Activism was still at its infancy. Black people did not speak out like they do now.
NONSENSE!

I was listening almost exclusively to rap music back then, and boy did people speak out. The Sugarhill Gang had their first hit in '79. Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five launched their first record on Sugar Hill Records in 1980. No punches were pulled. In 1987 a group called NWA lauched their first album, perhaps you've heard of them?

And all of it got played on the radio. Stuff that would have been blacklisted today (but violent and misogynistic gangsta rap lyrics are OK, for some reason).

Stop infantilizing black people. They are just like everybody else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelk View Post
In the context of "When the looting starts, the shooting starts." dates back to 1967 civil rights when Miami police chief Walter Headley a known bigot said the phrase during a hearing about crime and talking about young black people.
And you think The Orange Man knows this? That he chose this phrase carefully to show those "in the know" (who are all on the left, it seems) how racist he is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelk View Post
Trump claims he knows knows not where he heard the saying but saying the phrase in the same content was deliberate IMHO.
You are free to believe that, but I think it sounds crazy and conspiratorial. And it was not said in the same context at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelk View Post
Lots of sayings (again I am sorry...)
Sell down the river
Master bedroom.
Peanut gallery
Uppity
Cakewalk
Call a spade a spade
Yes, all sayings that have two things in common:
  1. They are etymologically not related to racism or slavery at all, and
  2. insane leftists continue to claim that they are (even though that's demonstrably untrue), because they want power to control your speech
Let's add blacklist, whitelist, and niggardly to that list, shall we? And perhaps the Spanish word "Negro" needs to be banned? Too bad they don't have a synonym, but I guess they'll just have to shut up then.

Please man, stop propagating this insane rubbish. It stokes racial division, because that's what it's designed to do!

Last edited by Ser Olmy; 11-07-2020 at 03:28 PM.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 03:36 PM   #83
hazel
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Calling a spade a spade definitely has nothing to do with race. The saying is English, not American, and goes back to way before Windrush. There was a fashion in Victorian England for using fancy phraseology in the belief that this made you sound more genteel. The full saying is "Calling a spade a spade and not a 'garden implement'".

I think "spade" for black came in much later.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 03:42 PM   #84
michaelk
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You said that you never heard Trump say or do anything racist. I am trying to prove you wrong but not doing a good job.

I was responding to Hazel's post. I am not trying to stoke racial division. We can not pretend the past did not happen just learn from it.

True. Thanks Hazel

Last edited by michaelk; 11-07-2020 at 03:43 PM.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 03:43 PM   #85
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The full saying is "Calling a spade a spade and not a 'garden implement'".
We have a word-for-word translated version of this saying in my country.

(And for the record, none of our gardening tools moonlight as racial slurs.)
 
Old 11-07-2020, 03:49 PM   #86
Ser Olmy
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I was responding to Hazel's post. I am not trying to stoke racial division. We can not pretend the past did not happen just learn from it.
I agree.

But rewriting the past and censoring it makes it impossible to learn from it.

Did you hear about the teacher who was suspended for reading out loud Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"? It contains racial slurs. Should we never read that letter, or books like Uncle Tom's Cabin or Tom Sawyer, ever again?

The saying "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me" is supposed to teach us an important lesson: That we must not give others the power to control us with mere words.

If an idiot calls a non-white person a racial slur, the correct response would be to quote Joe Biden: "Come on, man!" Because it's just ridiculous to imply that race matters; we all know better. Or at least we should.

Last edited by Ser Olmy; 11-07-2020 at 07:51 PM.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 05:43 PM   #87
enorbet
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Isn't it fascinating how words and sometimes even the concepts they express change with culture and time? While growing up I took it that "call a spade a spade" was both completely symbolic, meaning we should call a thing what it actually is itself and beware of symbols, denotation vs/ connotation, as well as be more specific and in choosing and defining symbols. Figuratively, I assumed it referred to the suit of Spades in cards, meaning declare your intentions and be specific... each idea basically consistent with the other. It is a bit odd that growing up in farm country where everybody owned spades (we can choose not to discuss "hoes" to avoid confusion ) that I never even imagined that's what the cliche was derived from since it was so obvious but now I see that's exactly the point.

The word "race" itself has undergone such change. Before DNA was discovered and before deep Anthropology, "race" was nearly an equivalent of "tribe of Others" never making the distinction between Culture and Genetics. "Race" was based entirely on superficial and often merely visible differences. There are cultural differences because culture broadly defines behaviour. General genetics does not because some 85%+ of us are all of mixed heritage. Genetically all of us have far more in common than we do not. It was common before DNA to consider African a "race" when there is more genetic difference between many groups of Africans than there is between any one African group and Europeans. In short the whole idea of "race" is rife with error and bad assumptions.

I recall reading the words of a prominent Black Activist in the late 60s or early 70s saying he "preferred George Wallace" because he knew exactly what he stood for since he had no conversational filters, while many on the flip side were blind to their own collectivist racism. I think the underlying message and certainly the most important concept expressed there is "people should be honest" which qlso implies people should not suppress words of thoughts. Censorship is far more often than not REALLY a bad thing. In fact, I'm aligned with Benjamin Franklin, that Freedom of Speech is the single most important Liberty because from it all others can be derived and without it none of them can be derived. It is worthy of note that George Wallace reversed his position later in life.

The advent of Political Correctness and it's promotion of deep censorship, even if for a seemingly good cause, is not only foolhardy but counter-productive, insidious and dangerous in the extreme. AFAIK there is no Amendment guaranteeing the "right" to not be offended and wity very good reason. Apparently many of us have lost sight of that basic fact of existence. I sincerely hope we "grow up".

Last edited by enorbet; 11-07-2020 at 05:47 PM.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 07:57 PM   #88
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In fact, I'm aligned with Benjamin Franklin, that Freedom of Speech is the single most important Liberty because from it all others can be derived and without it none of them can be derived.
A similar thought from George Orwell: "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

Tolerance is accepting that others are allowed to say or do things that make you uncomfortable. You don't "tolerate" things you enjoy or agree with.
 
Old 11-07-2020, 10:38 PM   #89
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the Trump supporters fervently believe that the Democrats will ban firearms, interfere with freedom of religion, establish a socialist economic system thus impoverishing the country, and raise taxes.
Because the Democrats openly say they will.

Guns: Do you really want me to post hundreds of links of Biden and his "Gun Control Czar" Beto talking about banning guns?

Interfere with freedom of religion: Like making it illegal for people to go gather for a church service? Or even the right to refuse artistic commissions based on religious objections? I say this as an atheist.

socialist economic system thus impoverishing the country: They're openly calling for socialism. Whether or not you feel that will impoverish the country is a matter of opinion.

raise taxes: This is a fact. His supporters love to say "it's only if you make over $400k" while conveniently ignoring that there are taxes other than income tax that are getting a massive hike. Increases in corporate tax rate will definitely see cost of goods increasing. Capital gains tax increase will mean 401k and IRA hits. His attack on fossil fuels (notably fracking) will see a steep rise in the cost of natural gas which 72 million Americans use. The knock-on effects are endless. Don't get me started on the $15 minimum wage.
 
Old 11-08-2020, 03:32 AM   #90
rkelsen
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They're openly calling for socialism.
Universal health care is not socialism. It's a basic right as a human being. The richest country in the world should not even be discussing it. People should not be dying because they can't afford hospital bills.

It always amuses me to hear Americans talking about "the left". There is no "left" in America. Centre-right is about as far left as your country goes. There's nothing at all wrong with that, but the way you guys talk it's as if Biden wants to turn the place into Norway (not that there's anything wrong with Norway either).

Last edited by rkelsen; 11-08-2020 at 05:35 AM.
 
  


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