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Old 11-04-2019, 02:14 PM   #61
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Is there an "independent" newspaper in the UK, or is it similar to other countries where all have a vested interest/slant?
There is no national newspaper that's truly independent here. There's a newspaper called The Independent, and though I think it initially intended to have no political bias, it has been left-slanted for many years now. That's why the only thing one can do is read around and make one's own decisions here. I tend to read a combination of The Telegraph [right], The Guardian [left], The Spectator [right], The BBC [leftish sensationalist trash] and Worker's Hammer [Marxist]. There's other stuff too, but I would rather read a mishmash than live in a political bubble like a lot of people I know.

Last edited by Lysander666; 11-04-2019 at 02:33 PM.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 02:38 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
There is no national newspaper that's truly independent here. There's a newspaper called The Independent, and though I think it initially intended to have no political bias, it has been left-slanted for many years now. That's why the only thing one can do is read around and make one's own decisions here. I tend to read a combination of The Telegraph [right], The Guardian [left], The Spectator [right], The BBC [leftish sensationalist trash] and Worker's Hammer [Marxist]. There's other stuff too, but I would rather read a mishmash than live in a political bubble like a lot of people I know.

Worker's Hammer sounds like a metal band. Are the main stream rags (papers) funded in any part by the government?

PS: appears the Hammer are in favor of Brexit.

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 11-04-2019 at 02:40 PM.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 02:43 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post

Worker's Hammer sounds like a metal band. Are the main stream rags (papers) funded in any part by the government?
It does - there are loads of bands with 'hammer' in their name! As for your funding question, someone more knowledgeable than I would have to answer that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
PS: appears the Hammer are in favor of Brexit.
They are. That was a surprise to me, that's an interesting article.

Quote:
To state the obvious, if the British rulers wanted to, they could leave the EU tomorrow. Britain is not an oppressed country like Ireland or Greece, dominated by imperialist powers; it is an imperialist power in its own right, albeit a senile and decrepit one. Britain has remained in the EU not from any lack of national sovereignty but because the British imperialists want to keep their fingers in the pie.

...

The Socialist Party (SP), whose predecessor the Militant tendency spent decades buried in the Labour Party, calls for Jeremy Corbyn to implement a “socialist”, “pro-worker” Brexit. This is obviously absurd, given that Corbyn supports the EU. At the same time, the SP echoes Corbyn’s opposition to a “damaging Tory Brexit”. For example, the March 2018 editorial in Socialism Today insists: “The workers’ movement must maintain an independent class opposition to a Tory Brexit, ‘soft’, ‘hard’ or ‘no deal’.” All this comes down to opposing Brexit when it’s actually posed. To paraphrase Lewis Carroll’s White Queen, it’s Brexit tomorrow and Brexit yesterday — but never Brexit today.

Last edited by Lysander666; 11-04-2019 at 02:55 PM.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 04:02 PM   #64
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As an American who has no skin in the game I'd vote LibDem in the upcoming election.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 06:05 PM   #65
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The Telegraph
- owned: Barclay brothers
- political slant favours: establishment, international/corporate business, financial market and banking

The Independent
- owned: Some Russian oligarch
- political slant favours: mainstream left, academia, (surprisingly actually seems fairly independent)

The Guardian
- owned: trust
- political slant favours: incompetent bourgoise leftism

The Sun & The Times
- owned: Rupert Murdoch
- political slant favours: whatever's best for Rupert Murdoch

Mirror
- owned: public company
- political slant favours: strongly left, sometimes bordering on communist

Daily Mail
- owned: Viscount Rothmere
- political slant favours: strongly right, small "c" conservatism

Daily Express
- owned: Richard Desmond
- political slant favours: mindless right wing sometimes bordering on fascism

Last edited by trewornan; 11-04-2019 at 06:08 PM.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 08:48 PM   #66
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan View Post
The Telegraph
- owned: Barclay brothers
- political slant favours: establishment, international/corporate business, financial market and banking

The Independent
- owned: Some Russian oligarch
- political slant favours: mainstream left, academia, (surprisingly actually seems fairly independent)

The Guardian
- owned: trust
- political slant favours: incompetent bourgoise leftism

The Sun & The Times
- owned: Rupert Murdoch
- political slant favours: whatever's best for Rupert Murdoch

Mirror
- owned: public company
- political slant favours: strongly left, sometimes bordering on communist

Daily Mail
- owned: Viscount Rothmere
- political slant favours: strongly right, small "c" conservatism

Daily Express
- owned: Richard Desmond
- political slant favours: mindless right wing sometimes bordering on fascism
Great info to know. Thank you. Once again follow the money!
 
Old 11-04-2019, 11:31 PM   #67
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Brexit, like Trump, is an emotional psychosis reaction it seems. Funny thing is that those voting for it are playing into the hands of the very people they hate no? Isn't bbrexit really just about the city of London staying independent? Just emotionally trigger the population and logic flies out of the window?
The idea of leaving a huge economic area after almost 50 years of cooperation and the impending destruction that will cause seems madness to most, including me.
I don't envy your position.
So there is common agreement of a loss of 4.7 trillion off of the economy, even by the viewpoint of your Conservative party, the UK dissolving into just England and Wales, 8% GDP negative and a loss of the elite professional/technical classes to a great degree. You are already seen to lose 1.3 million jobs in the next 2 years. As an outsider I don't understand why you would want it. The UK was always seen, except for your trash media, as a reasonably stable country as a nation. Aren't Boris and Nigel after the Amerification of the UK? Bringing in Pharma, US industrial control and dissolution of the NHS, as just a few examples? I fear you will detach from the court of human rights, spiral into a further nanny police state & create a broken economy. Well whatever happens I wish you British well and hope it turns out better than expected. Good luck.
 
Old 11-04-2019, 11:54 PM   #68
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uk politics is in a mess
I can't make any sense of it.


The Lib dems had been campaigning for an in out EU ref. for years, they finally got one. But now the Lib Dems think it was a terrible idea so are campaigning for another referendum to overturn the result of the one they fought so hard for.
If they "win" will that lead to a "best of three"?
or is the 1975 ( EC ref. ) classed as the first and thus the second the third?

The Lib Dems current campaign pledge to revoke article 50 is dangerous for "democracy". What would happen if they won a general election with 40% of the vote share? does that 40% trump the Brexit 52%?
Judging by the reaction of the audience on "Question Time" I believe we will not find out. ( I suspect lib dem will lose seats to Conservative/Brexit Party)

SNP, they want out of the UK but to remain in the EU
This is where it gets messy
If Scotland where to leave the UK they would no longer be a member of the EU
They will have to invoke article 49 to enter negotiations with the EU ( years possibly decades ). Spain would not be too keen to let Scotland do this as it would bolster Catalan independence.
either way, Scotland is leaving the EU
I suspect SNP will lose seats to the Scottish Conservatives
not over Brexit but IndyRef2.

Corbyn is a life long Eurosceptic, during the EU referendum he campaigned for remain "officially" but it was actually very difficult to be convinced that he was campaigning for remain. And now the Labour position is?
negotiate a new deal in six months and arrange a referendum and campaign against the deal they "won".
Why? although Corbyn is Eurosceptic his party is not. what is his motivation?
In the time it takes to negotiate deal, have the referendum etc. Corbyn plans to set up his Socialist utopia nationalising everything as he truly believes everyone will see the light and Brexit will not matter as everyone will be happy.

I suspect Labour voters on both sides of the Brexit argument see the fudge as fudge and the vote will be split between the Libdems for the revoke A50, Brexit Party for the "Clean Brexit" and Conservative for "Pragmatic Brexit"
Scottish Labour will lose votes to Scottish Conservatives over Labour's apparent willingness to give SNP another IndyRef.

Although it could just simply be that Corbyn is just hopelessly addicted to protesting. The only thing he has ever managed to lead is a protest march and he does love the attention.

DUP, lost power when Boris ejected those who broke the three line whip.
I don't really know what is going on in NI politics, they haven't sat for years ( since "cash for ash" scandal ) Brexit seems to have made everyone forget about that.

Brexit Party, not much to say
They will soak up Ex-Labour and some Ex-Libdems and Conservatives in Labour strong holds
I think they will do very well in Wales,
It is run by Labour ( which is why the NHS is so poor in Wales )
strong Brexit vote
I doubt Conservatives will do well ( Coal mining , Thatcher .. )
Plaid Cymru is remain.

The Conservatives have been split over Europe for decades
Maastricht ( Brexit seed planted in the 90s ) and all that. through out the years the one thing that has united them is the fear of a Labour Gov.

My prediction, either a Conservative Majority Gov. or a Conservative/Brexit Party coalition.

but I reserve the right to change that, who knows what will happen in the next few days let alone weeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questi..._(TV_programme)
better than any other opinion poll

Brexitcast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexitcast
If you have many hours to kill, start from the beginning
I may have to edit this post after catching up on the new electioncast
 
Old 11-05-2019, 05:07 AM   #69
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan View Post
How is this subverting democracy?
If you game the political system, by only selectively fielding candidates, you're not campaigning for being elected into government, you're campaigning to stop a certain party being elected - he has admitted that. If the boot were on the other foot, presumably you wouldn't complain? For example if the Liberal Democrats had a realistic chance of being elected - bearing in mind their pre-election pledge - and another party was selectively and strategically fielding candidates, to rob Labour / the Tories of votes, presumably you'd have no problem with that? While that party might be acting legally, the ethics of it are dubious at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan View Post
George Soros - oh no wait, that's the Nazi collaborator who bankrolled much of the remain campaign. All political parties raise funds by donation and often from some pretty unsavoury characters. If I was a remainer I'd be very careful about throwing stones.
In fact Soros donated money last year to "Best for Britain" a group founded after the referendum by a handful of business tycoons - and not to Britain Stronger in Europe, the official remain campaign. The campaign was bound by electoral commission rules at the time and a bung from someone like Soros would have been a breach of said rules.

Britain Stronger in Europe, has not been investigated over expenses (yet). Both of the leave campaigns have been however. Both of the leave campaigns have also been linked to SCL Group / Robert Mercer and/or AggregateIQ (itself suspected of affiliation with the former - and incidentally CA were using AIQ's software).
Quote:
Originally Posted by trewornan View Post
Two cities actually.
"The City" plus 32 boroughs.

The City of Westminster is one of the 32 boroughs which has city status.

...

This thread is getting very polarised and emotional and it seems a laid back debate on this issue without "taking sides", getting offended and resorting to sniping isn't possible. I was very interested in hearing the specifics of the misleading propaganda used by the remain campaign at the time, but thus far it has not been forthcoming.

I will happily bow out at this stage.


Last edited by cynwulf; 11-05-2019 at 05:09 AM.
 
Old 11-05-2019, 05:16 AM   #70
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
This thread is getting very polarised and emotional and it seems a laid back debate on this issue without "taking sides", getting offended and resorting to sniping isn't possible. I was very interested in hearing the specifics of the misleading propaganda used by the remain campaign at the time, but thus far it has not been forthcoming.

I will happily bow out at this stage.

This thread is going way better than those I've seen on other fora, so far anyway. That's not to say it doesn't have the potential to deteriorate. What it does show - to those both in the know and those not - is that Brexit is a complicated issue for those of us on the ground, and that it's not just Leave v Remain but types of leavers vs types of remainers.

Really I was more interested in this thread being about the upcoming election, but since Brexit is such an important issue - the main issue - it was probably naive of me to think this wouldn't turn into a Brexit thread.

Over here in the UK, as you well know cynwulf, Brexit is unavoidable in the mainstream, and if this thread generates too much argument and back-biting rather than intelligent debate I'll request a lock. It should be productive, and we should all learn from each other and enrich each other's knowledge: entry into the thread should not make one want to run out of it.
 
Old 11-05-2019, 05:35 AM   #71
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BREXIT dragged out for far too long, by politicians who didn't want to leave - the vote as I saw it was to leave (literally, no deals), or to stay.

Since joining the EU, our police forces have deteriorated through lack of funding, our NHS is falling apart through lack of funding, our schools are in desperate need of repairs & cash injection - what have we gained from joining the EU?

Even our currency has taken hits since all this faffing around by the polititians indecisiveness.

Whatever you voted for, & want, you'll only get a bad deal made by polititians anyway, unfortunately - we seem to be doomed whichever way it goes now.
 
Old 11-05-2019, 05:53 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
The Brexit party / Farage have publicly disclosed that they wanted to subvert democracy, by making a pact with the Tories to strategically not field candidates against them in specific constituencies in this election.
And the Lib Dem's are not fielding a candidate to stand against Remainer poster-boy Dominic Grieve. Both sides are playing that game.

Last edited by GazL; 11-05-2019 at 05:54 AM.
 
Old 11-05-2019, 06:27 AM   #73
trewornan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
The City of Westminster is one of the 32 boroughs which has city status.
Thanks for that, I believed there were 32 boroughs AND 2 cities. I didn't know Westminster was both a city and a borough.

Interesting.
 
Old 11-05-2019, 06:44 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Is there an "independent" newspaper in the UK, or is it similar to other countries where all have a vested interest/slant?
If you mean independent of political parties, no there isn't.
 
Old 11-05-2019, 06:55 AM   #75
trewornan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
if this thread generates too much argument and back-biting rather than intelligent debate I'll request a lock. It should be productive, and we should all learn from each other and enrich each other's knowledge
I've certainly experienced worse in discussions of Brexit even among friends, although Cynwulf is right and this has become slightly heated.

The truth is Brexit isn't just about the EU, there is a much deeper split between the two side that goes to the heart of how people view the world. Aside from the rational arguments, you also need to listen carefully to the more emotional words the two sides use.

Remainers often use words like: membership, belonging, unity, brotherhood.

Leavers often use words like: independence, sovereignty, self reliance.

One might suspect this runs to basic personality type although I'll refrain from suggesting any specifics.
 
  


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