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Old 10-30-2019, 04:38 PM   #16
ChuangTzu
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Well, I will chime in for myself (non-UK) and post for a few friends who live in the UK (well one would say he lives in Wales).

I support Brexit and the eventual dissolution of the EU. Would not be surprised if Italy and a few other countries also eventually split once the outcome is determined for the UK. My UK friends are supportive of Brexit and those candidates that want a quick exit.

Republics work well, Democracy is mob rule, Monarchy is crooked family rule, Theocracy is crooked religious rule... Sums it up a bit ... Cheers, watching it closely from across the pond.

PS: since England is talking about self-rule etc... can we add an addendum to the vote to allow Scotland, Wales and North Ireland to have the same self rule and independence and be free of England?

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 10-30-2019 at 04:45 PM.
 
Old 10-30-2019, 04:42 PM   #17
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
People saying how they're going to vote will divide people on this thread as deeply as England is divided. I don't ever vote. I don't want to give any human government a mandate. George Bernard Shaw Wrote:

I've no vote in what is for me a foreign election, and am into hospital tomorrow to have my femur decapitated, and have an extended length total hip job. I heard the surgeon order a Tritanium hip ball, and some super undislocate-able socket. I knew titanium, and it's good settling in human tissue. I looked up tritanium, and the only thing I found was on Wikipedia, where it's listed as a joke metal used in Star Trek Technobabble
Rest up business kid. May you be up and walking with the breeze on your back and the sun shining warm upon your face....
 
Old 10-30-2019, 10:21 PM   #18
trewornan
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Independence

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
PS: since England is talking about self-rule etc... can we add an addendum to the vote to allow Scotland, Wales and North Ireland to have the same self rule and independence and be free of England?
I've always supported peoples right to self determination, basque, chechen, catalonian, etc, I support them all . . . within reason of course, Fred down the street can't reasonably declare his house an independent country.

So in principle I've no objection to Wales and N. Ireland having referendums but I suspect it would mainly be a waste of money as there is ZERO chance of NI voting to leave and although I don't know much about the Welsh independence movement I suspect that's a very low probability too.

As far as Scotland is concerned - I know a lot of people seem to think that if you don't get the result you want in a referendum you just have another. That's certainly how the EU seems to work, but again, it's not reasonable to expect to have a referendum every few years, Scotland voted to stay in the UK, in 20 or 30 years if they wanted another referendum that would be fair enough. After all it was 40 years between UK referendums on Europe and the previous one wasn't even about membership of the same thing.

It does however annoys me when Sturgeon says Scotland voted to remain - it makes as much sense as Fred down the street saying his house voted to remain, we voted as a single country, that's what Scotland decided they wanted in their referendum.

[NB For those not familiar with NI politics; anybody suggesting NI might vote to leave the UK is simply announcing that they don't know the first thing about the subject (literally ignorance of the most basic demographic fact that underlies the entire political history of NI).]
 
Old 10-31-2019, 05:30 AM   #19
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Labour is admittedly a mess however - it has sought to transition back to pre Blairite/New Labour and move further to the left (as Blair's Labour, was not far off "alternative Tory"), but has not been successful in removing the relics of that time and in establishing a clear focus. The Tory media have attacked it relentlessly every step of the way, how they have attacked Corbyn has been nothing short of vile. Corbyn has been assessed as being a threat and much of the critique of Corbyn you will hear, is second hand b/s copied and pasted straight from the Mail/Times/Telegraph/Sun/etc. The "average" voter doesn't even know what Corbyn stands for, they only know what has been written about them in Tory newspapers.
You are quite correct in this. I read this post last night and let it germinate in my mind for a bit: I've been anti-Corbyn for a while but, on reflection, I can't actually say why. I don't know if I've even heard a cumulative five minutes of him speaking, so I'll have to inform myself directly. My family tend to get the entirety of their political opinions from The Guardian and Channel 4 News, whilst operating within communities that get the entirety of their political opinions from The Guardian and Channel 4 News, which I don't think is a much better way of doing things. I might be ignorant of the point but at least I'm now aware of it.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 06:45 AM   #20
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
But I could never vote for the present Labour party, which has become a nest of antisemites.
One could equally argue that the Conservative party is anti-islamic, racist, sexist, not to mention elitist, etc at it's core...

I will not discuss the "antisemitism in Labour party" topic as it's a whole new thread - which if it were made, I would still not participate in.

The only faith I have ever had in the Conservatives was that they would consistently screw working class people to better serve the privileged few they represent - so with that in mind they will never get my vote.

Any faith I had in the Labour Party was gone shortly after Blair led us into two illegal wars based on faulty pretexts. I don't think Corbyn can fix the problems in his own divided party - at any level.

The Liberal Democrats are now back playing the same game which Clegg played back in the run up to 2010. Wait until after the election to see what that bunch of turncoats are all about.

As to the Brexit/UKIP/etc "volatile" parties - they play a vital role. They will not draw many Conservative voters away, but will be a lure for the disillusioned tabloid blinded masses. And when push comes to shove, Johnson may have to form a coalition with them, if he can't get a majority, ditching the DUP in the process. They are shallow shorty lived populist parties, designed for the specific purpose of drawing away Labour voters - they usually implode and are then

A vote for the Brexit party is to gift the next election to the Conservatives. You might like to read some of the views of the founder of the Brexit part, an individual who had to resign over racist and anti-islamic comments - giving way to, who else but, Farage.

Last edited by cynwulf; 10-31-2019 at 06:55 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 07:21 AM   #21
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
As to the Brexit/UKIP/etc "volatile" parties - they play a vital role. They will not draw many Conservative voters away, but will be a lure for the disillusioned tabloid blinded masses. And when push comes to shove, Johnson may have to form a coalition with them, if he can't get a majority, ditching the DUP in the process. They are shallow shorty lived populist parties, designed for the specific purpose of drawing away Labour voters - they usually implode and are then

A vote for the Brexit party is to gift the next election to the Conservatives. You might like to read some of the views of the founder of the Brexit part, an individual who had to resign over racist and anti-islamic comments - giving way to, who else but, Farage.
I caught some of the Nigel Farage Show on LBC last night [still up on Youtube] and he looked rather relaxed and thoughtful. I imagine he knows that he's in something of an advantageous position. He said he was waiting to decide what his next move would be.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 09:01 AM   #22
jsbjsb001
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I must say that I thought a certain head of state in the US was very entertaining for all the wrong reasons...

While I speak as an outsider to the UK; your "Boris" seems to be very much the UK's Trump. I was convinced that UK was going to "crash out" of the EU (it may still do so, I haven't completely ruled it out), but it seems Boris has finally been able to win at least one vote. I think if your Labor party gets up and wins government, then apparently from what I've heard from across "the pond", they plan to hold another vote on leaving the EU. If they do win government and hold another vote on leaving the EU, then I think it's likely that the "stay" vote will get up, in which all of the bickering about "Brexit" will have all been for nothing.

...or, if what I'm led to believe are called the "Tory party" wins, and let's say Boris is still leader; then he either makes a deal that the parliament finally agrees on, and the UK leaves the EU with a deal. Or the parliament still can't agree on a deal, and the UK "crashes out", aka, a "no deal/hard Brexit".

...or, no party wins government outright, which will make avoiding a "no deal Brexit" very, very difficult.

I'm glad I don't live in the UK with all respect to those that do.

Which would you say is the most likely possibility there Lysander666?

I agree with GazL nonetheless - how can you trust any of them. I wouldn't personally.

PS: Maybe you should do a poll with the following options, "Hard Brexit", "Soft Brexit", "No Brexit", or "who the hell knows"...
 
Old 10-31-2019, 09:39 AM   #23
Pastychomper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
PS: since England is talking about self-rule etc... can we add an addendum to the vote to allow Scotland, Wales and North Ireland to have the same self rule and independence and be free of England?
It seems to me that the so-called UK government, along with a large section of the news media, is mostly focused on the Great Economic Powerhouse (TM) of London to the detriment of the rest of the UK. The best bet would be to split off London as a separate city-state, give it and England their own parliaments, and let them all vote on whether to stay in a somewhat looser UK. Of course that could have some interesting results if England was the only one to vote leave.

Personally I live in a safe yellow seat (always either liberal democrat [sic] or SNP), and as I'm pretty unimpressed with both my vote will probably only count in the sense that it'll add to the dissent noted by those who look at actual vote numbers. Sadly, proportional representation for the UK was effectively buried by a successful referendum (from parliament's point of view, that is: they offered us PR-lite or status quo, and status quo won).
 
Old 10-31-2019, 09:45 AM   #24
hazel
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I can see three possible outcomes:

1) The Conservatives win with a working majority and Johnson forces through the deal he agreed. We then leave the EU. What happens after that, no one knows!
2) Labour wins. Corbyn either cancels Article 50 or orders another referendum. He also pushes through a lot of left-wing legislation which leads to most of the money leaving the country. If there is a referendum, it leaves the country even angrier and more divided and we almost certainly won't leave. But by that time it probably won't matter any more.
3) The election leads to another stalemate. The EU keeps giving us extensions and in ten years time we will still be members. But by that time, the failure of parliament to carry out any other legislation whatever will have wrecked the country.

I wonder which of those is the most likely.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 10:10 AM   #25
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_sensible View Post
i didn't expect to see this post on linux questions
The situation has been divisive here in the UK since June 2016. In fact, for the first few weeks after the Brexit result came through, it was horrible. Arguments and fights everywhere. Since then it's gone from mild disagreements, to shock, tedium, macabre fascination, boredom, anger, disbelief and hopelessness. But with this election on the horizon, I feel that the British people [and others] at LQ would benefit from a retreatable corner in a familiar forum to discuss it. Consider it therapy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I can see three possible outcomes:

1) The Conservatives win with a working majority and Johnson forces through the deal he agreed. We then leave the EU. What happens after that, no one knows!
2) Labour wins. Corbyn either cancels Article 50 or orders another referendum. He also pushes through a lot of left-wing legislation which leads to most of the money leaving the country. If there is a referendum, it leaves the country even angrier and more divided and we almost certainly won't leave. But by that time it probably won't matter any more.
3) The election leads to another stalemate. The EU keeps giving us extensions and in ten years time we will still be members. But by that time, the failure of parliament to carry out any other legislation whatever will have wrecked the country.

I wonder which of those is the most likely.
I agree with all three though I would amend number 1 - Boris fails to get a majority and then goes in for a coalition with the Brexit Party. I have no idea which out of the three is the most likely. All bets are off, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
It seems to me that the so-called UK government, along with a large section of the news media, is mostly focused on the Great Economic Powerhouse (TM) of London to the detriment of the rest of the UK. The best bet would be to split off London as a separate city-state, give it and England their own parliaments, and let them all vote on whether to stay in a somewhat looser UK. Of course that could have some interesting results if England was the only one to vote leave.
With you lot, right? Scotlond! At least we'd have a nice flag.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 10:16 AM   #26
GazL
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I'm boolean on brexit. IMO no-deal/clean-break or remain are the only valid options. All these so called 'deals' are just bad compromises in which we lose the benefits of EU membership, without getting any of the benefits of leaving. Who in their right mind would want to choose that?

"Do, or do not." as Yoda would say. I don't care which, just don't fudge it!
 
Old 10-31-2019, 01:54 PM   #27
DavidMcCann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Republics work well
As in the USA?
Quote:
Monarchy is crooked family rule
In what way is the Queen crooked? In what way does she rule?
Quote:
…can we add an addendum to the vote to allow Scotland, Wales and North Ireland to have the same self rule and independence and be free of England?
The Welsh (3 times), Scots (3 times), and Northern Irish have all had referendums about self-rule or leaving the UK.

Perhaps you should stick to posting about subjects you know something about — I look forward to that day!
 
Old 10-31-2019, 04:54 PM   #28
Samsonite2010
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If the Conservatives get into power again, then Brexit will happen. If Labour, then they will hold a referendum. If Lib-Dem, they will cancel Brexit, but I doubt they have a chance!
 
Old 10-31-2019, 05:01 PM   #29
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samsonite2010 View Post
If the Conservatives get into power again, then Brexit will happen.
Or a nominal form of it, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samsonite2010 View Post
If Labour, then they will hold a referendum.
I fear the repercussions of such an event. It will piss a lot of people off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samsonite2010 View Post
If Lib-Dem, they will cancel Brexit, but I doubt they have a chance!
I can't see this happening in a million years.

Last edited by Lysander666; 10-31-2019 at 05:03 PM.
 
Old 10-31-2019, 07:48 PM   #30
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Yes a nominal form of it, but if anyone voted Brexit in the referendum they cannot possibly have known what it would actually be, only what they wanted it to be, so nominal is as good as any.
 
  


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