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Old 03-02-2018, 01:13 AM   #31
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
If the teachers were armed it would have a tremendous chilling effect on any knothead wanting to go into a school with guns .
Considering many if not most school shooters are not only willing to die in the process, they are often planning on it. I think teachers, especially unprepared, untrained teachers may just be juicy targets teachers, a minor challenge since surprise attack always has the upper hand. How could teachers store guns safely yet get to them quickly in an emergency?... or do you propose they keep them in holsters on their person? One thing is certain, it would have a chilling effect on education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
The 2nd amendment is not about hunting.
Do many people actually suppose it is about hunting? Given the details of The American Revolution I hope most know it was important to Founding Forefathers because they knew they would still be under a distant but repressive system were it not for rifles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
It is about bearing arms to protect oneself against people, particularly those people
who may be in the government.

Therefore it is reasonable that the arms be effective deterrents to human beings, including assault rifles.

If they are coming with assault rifles, you defend with assault rifles.
IMHO that time has all but passed into oblivion. Do you imagine the mujahadeen would have been capable of driving out the Russian Army with AK-47s alone? I think that without military grade explosives, RPGs and other heavy equipment provided by the US and others that they would still be under Russian rule even today. The same is true of the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I imagine even moreso in any internal revolt within US borders. They would come at you with rockets, jets, helicopters, recoilless repeating rifles capable of firing up to 1,000,000 rounds per minute, and tanks with cannons, machine guns and flame throwers not even remotely evenly matched against even the most aggressive of assault rifles. Do you think private citizens should be allowed to own those?

Don't get me wrong I don't give government a blank check and I don't hate guns. I just think it is silly to imagine that even assault rifles are a proper defense against a modern army and even many police forces now. Modern effective warfare is becoming ever more about economics, negotiation and computer cyber warfare. Witness the fairly recent events in Egypt where the internet and a few dedicated hackers in effect toppled an authoritarian regime without having to fire a shot or even be particularly at risk of being imprisoned, shot and/or killed.

As for school shootings people are looking for simple (and cheap) solutions and I don't think there are any like that. The infrastructure that makes for elite cliques at school who are given a pass for bullying the unpopular runs very deep and includes money since parents can be absolutely religious about school sports while just a wee bit less <sarc> about the Science Fair or any other scholastic achievement.
 
Old 03-02-2018, 02:06 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
That law makes it illegal to "insult the British Royal Family".
Someone's been telling you porkie-pies! People insult the Royal Family all the time. It's perfectly legal. They don't usually insult the Queen because she is widely admired as a good woman. Even I think so, and I have very little left over for the royals. But I could go into a public place and yell "The Queen is a ****ing ****!" and I doubt if anyone would bother to call the police. If they did, I probably wouldn't be charged with anything unless an actual fight had broken out.

Where free speech is increasingly threatened is on college campuses, where political correctness rules, and from what I have heard, US campuses are much worse than ours in that respect. So having a lot of guns around doesn't protect free speech at all.

It is illegal in Thailand to insult the royal family. I believe it's illegal in Saudi Arabia too. Perhaps you are getting the UK mixed up with somewhere else.
 
Old 03-02-2018, 05:03 AM   #33
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Let's just arm the teachers with guns, according to the NRA; "it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun".

Great plan...

As long as their not like this one.

...
 
Old 03-02-2018, 02:55 PM   #34
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Someone's been telling you porkie-pies! People insult the Royal Family all the time. It's perfectly legal. They don't usually insult the Queen because she is widely admired as a good woman. Even I think so, and I have very little left over for the royals. But I could go into a public place and yell "The Queen is a ****ing ****!" and I doubt if anyone would bother to call the police. If they did, I probably wouldn't be charged with anything unless an actual fight had broken out.

Where free speech is increasingly threatened is on college campuses, where political correctness rules, and from what I have heard, US campuses are much worse than ours in that respect. So having a lot of guns around doesn't protect free speech at all.

It is illegal in Thailand to insult the royal family. I believe it's illegal in Saudi Arabia too. Perhaps you are getting the UK mixed up with somewhere else.
section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986, has been used to enforce the law with particular regards to the Royal Family and Parliament. The law is sufficiently vague to include many forms of speech:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/5

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 03-02-2018 at 02:57 PM.
 
Old 03-02-2018, 03:06 PM   #35
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Considering many if not most school shooters are not only willing to die in the process, they are often planning on it. I think teachers, especially unprepared, untrained teachers may just be juicy targets teachers, a minor challenge since surprise attack always has the upper hand. How could teachers store guns safely yet get to them quickly in an emergency?... or do you propose they keep them in holsters on their person? One thing is certain, it would have a chilling effect on education.

Do many people actually suppose it is about hunting? Given the details of The American Revolution I hope most know it was important to Founding Forefathers because they knew they would still be under a distant but repressive system were it not for rifles.



IMHO that time has all but passed into oblivion. Do you imagine the mujahadeen would have been capable of driving out the Russian Army with AK-47s alone? I think that without military grade explosives, RPGs and other heavy equipment provided by the US and others that they would still be under Russian rule even today. The same is true of the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I imagine even moreso in any internal revolt within US borders. They would come at you with rockets, jets, helicopters, recoilless repeating rifles capable of firing up to 1,000,000 rounds per minute, and tanks with cannons, machine guns and flame throwers not even remotely evenly matched against even the most aggressive of assault rifles. Do you think private citizens should be allowed to own those?

Don't get me wrong I don't give government a blank check and I don't hate guns. I just think it is silly to imagine that even assault rifles are a proper defense against a modern army and even many police forces now. Modern effective warfare is becoming ever more about economics, negotiation and computer cyber warfare. Witness the fairly recent events in Egypt where the internet and a few dedicated hackers in effect toppled an authoritarian regime without having to fire a shot or even be particularly at risk of being imprisoned, shot and/or killed.

As for school shootings people are looking for simple (and cheap) solutions and I don't think there are any like that. The infrastructure that makes for elite cliques at school who are given a pass for bullying the unpopular runs very deep and includes money since parents can be absolutely religious about school sports while just a wee bit less <sarc> about the Science Fair or any other scholastic achievement.
and yet even though they whittle away at the rights, they still have not achieved the overthrow of the US Constitution like the progressives want to/lust to. I do believe the estimated 400 million+ guns is one of the reasons. Also, not advocating this at all, but in urban warfare environments;tanks, bombs, planes etc... are moot, unless willing to shock and awe, etc.... founding fathers were using basic muskets against the most advanced weapons the British Empire had at that time. So yeah, guns do matter.

Wayne LaPierre: Socialist Politicians Hide Behind "Democrat" Name
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIswby7BLHU

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 03-02-2018 at 03:10 PM.
 
Old 03-02-2018, 04:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
and yet even though they whittle away at the rights, they still have not achieved the overthrow of the US Constitution like the progressives want to/lust to. I do believe the estimated 400 million+ guns is one of the reasons. Also, not advocating this at all, but in urban warfare environments;tanks, bombs, planes etc... are moot, unless willing to shock and awe, etc.... founding fathers were using basic muskets against the most advanced weapons the British Empire had at that time. So yeah, guns do matter.
I'm of the opinion that the prevalence of this attitude is also a large part of the problem.

The idea that the remedy, if your rights are perceived to be infringed, is to "tool up and go get me some justice".
 
Old 03-02-2018, 07:32 PM   #37
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Also, not advocating this at all, but in urban warfare environments;tanks, bombs, planes etc... are moot, unless willing to shock and awe, etc.... founding fathers were using basic muskets against the most advanced weapons the British Empire had at that time. So yeah, guns do matter.
Firstly I'm curious as to what these "most advanced weapons" were that the British Empire allegedly had. Can you be specific? AFAIK the difference was slight at best, plus the Colonists took advantage of cover while the British Army was only trained in open field "gentlemanly" warfare in formal units (stand and deliver), had few cannon which wouldn't matter much in wooded hilly areas especially in any kind of net gain since they slowed an army down and the Colonists were nothing if not mobile on home territory.

Fast Forward to 2018 where recoilless rifles like the Australian made Metal Storm with 32 barrels fire over 16,000 rounds per second !!! and we begin to get a comparison of the disconnect between Revolution then and now. While planes may have limited use in quelling an insurrection, they are hardly moot since they can release chemical warfare that leaves buildings whole and helicopters are of wide-ranged use for support in many ways as well as a great gun and rocket platform. Add flame throwers, mines, and tanks (remember Bejing?)not to mention armed drones and we can begin to see that although "guns do kinda matter" if that's all a force has, they are doomed.

Another aspect is strategy. During the American Revolution the situation (something like absentee landlord) required that the Brits could not sit and wait. They had to engage, to rout out the troublemakers. This means the Revolutionaries got to pick when and where battle occurred and without any solid means of identification they could go home right under the Brit's noses and nobody was the wiser.

That is not the case when a revolution is against a sitting government. Add modern face recognition, DNA, etc etc and it wouldn't be hard to simply wait wherever they chose and starve any would-be revolutionaries out.

So I say you can't have useful halfway measures. Either you embrace private citizens owning sufficient weaponry to be on a par or you eschew violence as a means to change or topple a government. They hold all those cards and make the rules of the "game". My suggestion to those who worry about Autocracy in America is learn to hack. It's foolish to depend on mere assault rifles to actually prevail. It bothers me immensely to admit that, but that's how I see it. It appears to be an uncomfortable truth, but truth nonetheless.

The best means of stopping Autocracy is before it begins. Get involved. Make a difference.

Last edited by enorbet; 03-02-2018 at 07:34 PM.
 
Old 03-03-2018, 04:50 PM   #38
PROBLEMCHYLD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
If the teachers were armed it would have a tremendous chilling effect on any knothead wanting to go into a school with guns .

The 2nd amendment is not about hunting.

It is about bearing arms to protect oneself against people, particularly those people
who may be in the government.

Therefore it is reasonable that the arms be effective deterrents to human beings, including assault rifles.

If they are coming with assault rifles, you defend with assault rifles.
You seem to be well educated about amendments. Some LEO is not aware of the constitution and which it stands. Its a sad day for all of us or at least the ones NOT bearing arms.
 
Old 04-05-2018, 10:00 PM   #39
ChuangTzu
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https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/94...ge-David-Lammy

https://mobile.twitter.com/metpolice...624770/photo/1

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/l...urge-f59w0xqs0
 
Old 04-07-2018, 07:48 AM   #40
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROBLEMCHYLD View Post
You seem to be well educated about amendments. Some LEO is not aware of the constitution and which it stands. Its a sad day for all of us or at least the ones NOT bearing arms.
Personally, I think that this is mostly advertising by the weapons industry. I've been in pawn-shops and seen weapons that looked like something out of Men In Black. Selling for thousands of dollars apiece. Pragmatist that I am, I wondered how the hell you would clean it. It looked "cool," but flimsy. I wondered how many rounds you could put through it before some cheap plastic part breaks. (The well-known "Glok" weapons are filled with plastic parts that break down frequently.)

I have a modest .22 rifle that I use to take care of any raccoons that show up during the daytime. And, with pellet rounds, to scare away packs of dogs. I enjoy the sport of target shooting because "it's you, the weapon and the target." That 'coon will, mercifully, never know what hit him. But for home defense I rely upon the police, thank you.

Millions of kids go to school and come home every day without being shot or shot-at, and I don't think that they should be expected to attend any class that is being taught by a person who's packing a howitzer. Likewise, if I ever see a machine-gun nest being installed over the food court in a local shopping mall, that'll be the last time I shop there. The specter of armed troops from the guv'mint coming to take your precious guns away is a great way to sell guns (maybe ...), but not much more. In an actual scenario you'd be so out-gunned that your choices would be to surrender or be dead. But the actual scenario with tens of thousands of square miles of territory to secure is completely unworkable. That's not what they would actually set out to do.

What should concern you, instead, is what the Internet is being made to do, right in your own home, right under your nose. And/Or in your new car. These represent "new and novel" ways to attack you with precision, and without the need for excessive firepower. And, no one, as of yet, seems to be expressing the slightest concern about "what hath man wrought?"

Today, you must think outside the ammo-box – because, the bad guys do.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 04-07-2018 at 07:56 AM.
 
Old 04-07-2018, 09:01 PM   #41
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President Reagan: "If Fascism Ever Comes To America, It Will Come In The Name Of Liberalism"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2sMoykZ-lM
 
Old 04-07-2018, 09:04 PM   #42
ChuangTzu
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One Georgia Sheriffs answer:
https://www.ajc.com/news/local/georg...oc1evGooiRSTI/
 
Old 04-09-2018, 07:35 AM   #43
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Sometimes, (dark) humor is the best way to make a critical point.

Lurking in the mind of any criminal is, "I can do this and get away with it, with no consequence to myself." Anything that might make a perpetrator "think twice" might be the difference between peace and crime.

For a similar reason, "Sheriff Joe" in Arizona forced inmates to wear pink underwear and to be incarcerated in rude and uncomfortable tents ... and very heavily publicized this. "You will not come to harm in my jail, but you will not enjoy your stay. So, do you really want to commit that crime which will cause you to be here?" In another city, DUI cases dropped dramatically when it was made known that you would have to drive one car with a bright red CONVICTED OF DUI sign in the back window ... for a year. Public humiliation works.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 04-09-2018 at 07:38 AM.
 
Old 04-09-2018, 05:53 PM   #44
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Sometimes, (dark) humor is the best way to make a critical point.

Lurking in the mind of any criminal is, "I can do this and get away with it, with no consequence to myself." Anything that might make a perpetrator "think twice" might be the difference between peace and crime.

For a similar reason, "Sheriff Joe" in Arizona forced inmates to wear pink underwear and to be incarcerated in rude and uncomfortable tents ... and very heavily publicized this. "You will not come to harm in my jail, but you will not enjoy your stay. So, do you really want to commit that crime which will cause you to be here?" In another city, DUI cases dropped dramatically when it was made known that you would have to drive one car with a bright red CONVICTED OF DUI sign in the back window ... for a year. Public humiliation works.
agreed.
 
Old 04-09-2018, 05:57 PM   #45
ChuangTzu
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Meanwhile, as stated before banning guns will not stop crazy people or thugs from being crazy and committing crimes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IirUMcqKEMU&app=desktop

and, once you allow the gov.'t to ban guns they will eventually start banning other "weapons" (London will now have "knife control" to go along with gun control):
https://www.dailywire.com/news/29179...-emily-zanotti
 
  


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