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View Poll Results: Human Caused Climate Change is Real?
Yes 24 68.57%
No. It's a Hoax 9 25.71%
Jury Isn't In Yet 2 5.71%
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:43 PM   #46
enorbet
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OT question for Mara - Hello Mara I'm writing this in hopes of getting some clarification. I took ondoho's statement of "conspiration theorists horse manure" as a derisive judgment on ideas not people and therefore not personal. Apparently you, or someone, took it differently and in fact as a personal attack. Could you please explain this fine line so we can all understand this better?
 
Old 08-09-2018, 09:43 PM   #47
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This is the problem I have with climate.

If you believe science then most of Africa was a vast forest that died off some 4K to 20K years ago. If you believe science then you have to believe that Chili and Peru were once lush areas that went desert some 2000 years ago. If you believe science then you you'd believe the Mayan civilization died off mainly from a drought. Did mankind have a hand in it then. Well, maybe. Are there billions of variables in this issue? Yes.
 
Old 08-10-2018, 01:41 AM   #48
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
This is the problem I have with climate.

If you believe science then most of Africa was a vast forest that died off some 4K to 20K years ago. If you believe science then you have to believe that Chili and Peru were once lush areas that went desert some 2000 years ago. If you believe science then you you'd believe the Mayan civilization died off mainly from a drought. Did mankind have a hand in it then. Well, maybe. Are there billions of variables in this issue? Yes.
While it is certainly true that climate, since it takes place on so many levels and has so many influences globally that translate locally, is more complex than say why two atoms of hydrogen combine with one atom of oxygen to make a molecule of water, and while it is possible to consider some large number of variables (not certain it amounts to billions... could be millions or hundreds of thousands) it should be obvious that like in most events it is possible to rule out a very large number as "impossible or unlikely" since Probability is a very advanced and refined area of Science and Mathematics.

Regarding your specific examples let's start with the Mayan civilization and whether or not they had a hand in their own demise. The story of the fate of the Mayans isn't isolated. We know not only from Archaeology and the fossil record but in some cases from well documented written accounts from the times that numerous civilizations with similar farming practices did indeed powerfully influence conditions that resulted in drought. The very same practices and processes that brought about The Dust Bowl in the south eastern US played a large part in the loss of cities of the Aztecs, the Incas as well as the Mayans and hundreds of civilizations large and small throughout human history. This really isn't very complicated and is extremely well researched and verified.

The situation in Africa is more complicated mainly because this didn't occur as you said "4K to 20K years ago" but over millions of years yet the causes are very well known and involve plate tectonics which operate on very long time scales. Even the lake of magma that caused The Great Rift Valley is well researched and verified and it, combined with India slamming into Asia and creating the Himalayan mountain range is very well understood and has resisted all efforts to falsify the process.

Here is a very good article from Scientific American explaining the details of those events that have and continue to shape global climate but with a much more profound effect on some locales, while others were and are only mildly affected

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...man-evolution/


There is nobody doubting that so-called Natural Events like plate tectonics, volcanoes, asteroids and the like have had profound effects on climate in the ~4 billion years that Earth has existed. However there are very few if anyone doubting that The Dust Bowl was not almost entirely a man-made event and it is known that those same farming methods with only slight variations caused similar events over and over and over again in numerous locations. So it cannot be doubted than Man affects his environment. This is exactly why many early cities even up until the end of the 19th century (and later) nearly destroyed themselves by such un-hygienic practices as drawing drinking water from the same rivers used to dump sewage. It's why toilets are not located in kitchens and gas traps are included in sewer pipes and sinks. This is Science that took a very long time to work out but now most of us just take these for granted and don't think of it as scientific discovery but it most certainly is.

So just how far does your doubt of Science extend? You certainly don't have to answer that for me but you should consider that answer for yourself.
 
Old 08-10-2018, 02:43 PM   #49
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I'm just saying that every person that has ever lived on earth would have to be blamed for any climate change. This tends to be a true fact that most could agree with. Maybe to some degree the animals and plants could have affected a change too.

There are very few humans that have ever lived that didn't have some negative impact on the earth. My complaint is that there are literally billions of variables and many of them are not well known or well tested. I still go back the the statement that says, let me study weather for 1000 years and I'll tell you what the weather will be tomorrow. Weather has changed over the millions of years on earth from both internal, surface and external changes.


In my short stay on this earth I have seen almost every claim changed on every idea. Asbestos was a miracle in 1960. We were entering an ice age in 1962. MTBA was an EPA way to save the planet. EPA mandated better emission by percentage over total weight. These same notions in 1960 were considered science in the day and oppressed the notions of 1940's. Here's one. Solar PV panels have used about twice the energy they have ever created. Wind generators are killing birds. The earths magnetic poles may be changing or may be reducing may be one of the few claims that I tend to believe. I have seen this oddity onboard ships. I don't believe that electric cars as of yet are a more green solution. No one has shown the batteries to be easily recycled. The materials in them are all exotic and many dangerous and come from places that have no respect for the earth.
Don't let me get on medical issues. Billions of dollars on cancer since my grandfather died from it. Basically all that has changed is early diagnosing. HIV totally could go extinct but we can't get idiots to stop spreading it along with other preventable diseases.

It is not a question if I believe in science. It is a question of their credibility. I have seen too many wrong guesses in my life and pompous claims of how great the notions are.

As for the wind generators I tried to the EPA to study my solutions to reduce bird deaths and they refused.


No, I don't think the US knew about the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor or the twin towers.

I don't care if 100 people or a million tell me some notion. I don't have to believe it. (unless I live in some mind controlled country) I don't have to believe the stupid stuff they say on the news either. I've lived in other countries and know that everywhere they have biased media.
 
Old 08-10-2018, 02:54 PM   #50
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Jefro, very good points.

In order to understand where the "Man Made Climate Scheme" came from, it is important to understand that it is rooted (Australian meaning as well) in the belief that man is the problem; man is viewed as a parasitic anomaly that is ruining the world, and that unless this parasite is either 1) eradicated, 2) numbers reduced to a more "controllable" level, and/or 3) mankind (except for elites) must be taken back to a preindustrial world, then the world will only continue to be corrupted by the influence of these parasites. Bill Gates, George Soros, The Rockefeller Foundation, etc... have said this many times in writing as well as Ted Talks, etc... Before them it was Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mao Zedong, Mussolini and others...

This is ideology/philosophy and politics masquerading as science, and is actually unscientific. As stated earlier in the thread it is: Tyranny of Science, Tyranny of Mind and Tyranny of the Majority.

PS: these are the same scientists that cannot predict the weather accurately today or tomorrow, let alone 25-50-100 years from now. That is why they changed the scheme from Global Warming to Climate Change, because with the later, they can claim to be right either way. Its Politics/Ideology pure and simple. Look up Identity Politics.

Ref:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...4.2010.00556.x

"“The analysis of Nature into its individual parts, the grouping of the different natural processes and objects in definite classes, the study of the internal anatomy of organized bodies in their manifold forms—these were the fundamental conditions of the gigantic strides in our knowledge of Nature that have been made during the last 400 years. But this method of work has also left us as legacy the habit of observing natural objects and processes in isolation, apart from their connection with the vast whole; of observing them in repose, not in motion; as constraints, not as essentially variables; in their death, not in their life.”
—Frederick Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific"
https://isreview.org/issue/72/marxism-and-environment

http://climateandcapitalism.com/2014...-soviet-union/

"Frank Furedi:
"What we today call 'environmentalism' is ... based on a fear of change. It's based upon a fear of the outcome of human action. And therefore it's not surprising that when you look at the more xenophobic right-wing movements in Europe in the 19th century, including German fascism, it quite often had a very strong environmentalist dynamic to it. The most notorious environmentalists in history were the German Nazis. The Nazis ordered soldiers to plant more trees. They were the first Europeans to establish nature reserves and order the protection of hedgerows and other wildlife habitats. And they were horrified at the idea of hydroelectric dams on the Rhine. Adolf Hitler and other leading Nazis were vegetarian and they passed numerous laws on animal rights.""
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs...zi_ecology.htm

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffma...%20Ecology.htm

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...et_so_far.html

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 08-10-2018 at 03:09 PM. Reason: added links and qoutes.
 
Old 08-10-2018, 03:16 PM   #51
jeremy
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We're getting very close to the point that more members are going have posting privileges in General restricted. Please keep this in mind when posting moving forward.

--jeremy
 
Old 08-11-2018, 04:19 AM   #52
ondoho
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We're getting very close to the point that more members are going have posting privileges in General restricted. Please keep this in mind when posting moving forward.
i don't understand.
who? why?
is something untoward going on in this thread? honest question.
of course a topic like this will create controversy, but i think it is being handled in a civilised way; i was always happy that LQ doesn't shy away from that.

i dislike vague threats.
 
Old 08-11-2018, 06:02 AM   #53
enorbet
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To all participants and interested parties in this thread - I'm not at all singling you out ondoho since I absolutely agree with your most recent post as I interpret it with only one concern. Please folks, have trust in the manner in which LQN, it's members and especially it's moderators have behaved and in the value of what we all create here - a truly adult forum worthy of considerable pride and allegiance. I only mentioned you, ondoho, because yours is the the most recent post and I hope you realize that I posted similarly on the previous page asking the same of the original concerned but vague post from mara.

I think it is crucial we all remind ourselves that raw text is an incomplete form of communication because it lacks so many cues we humans rely on for context and it is absolutely commonplace to misinterpret raw text and one thing leads to another and bang! we have a flame war. So let's avoid that misguided progression by reminding ourselves and giving people time, space, and the respect to reflect and respond. I, too, am of the opinion that while we may flirt with the borders of getting personal, we are all adults and capable of having respect for each other regardless of "sides"and ultimately handle ourselves with adult civility.

So this is an appeal to our most noble selves for patience and understanding. Nobody has been hurt and I have every confidence it will all resolve for the good of us all.
 
Old 08-11-2018, 06:12 AM   #54
jsbjsb001
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Personally, I've made my point with what I've already said, so if others what to debate that (or anything else), that's up to them.

For the record: I can understand where Jeremy is coming from. My "take" on what he said was something to the effect of, "while no-one has really crossed the line yet, it's getting close to it with *some* of the comments made thus far". Which to me is just a friendly reminder to keep it civil. I think at least one member is overreacting to what he said (not yourself enorbet).

I think also that at the end of the day, Jeremy has every right to dictate what goes and what doesn't - it's his online house and site. He IS the site's owner, full stop.
 
Old 08-11-2018, 06:26 AM   #55
henderson
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Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Personally, I've made my point with what I've already said, so if others what to debate that (or anything else), that's up to them.

For the record: I can understand where Jeremy is coming from. My "take" on what he said was something to the effect of, "while no-one has really crossed the line yet, it's getting close to it with *some* of the comments made thus far". Which to me is just a friendly reminder to keep it civil. I think at least one member is overreacting to what he said (not yourself enorbet).

I think also that at the end of the day, Jeremy has every right to dictate what goes and what doesn't - it's his online house and site. He IS the site's owner, full stop.
It is OK to question what others said, even if they're the owners.
Blindly obeying has caused all kinds of desasters in the world.
 
Old 08-11-2018, 06:37 AM   #56
jsbjsb001
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It is OK to question what others said, even if they're the owners.
Blindly obeying has caused all kinds of desasters in the world.
I never said that it wasn't OK in question what Jeremy said. I was simply stating my own "take" on what he said, perhaps you should read what I said properly.

Who's saying people should "blindly obey what others say" ??
 
Old 08-15-2018, 10:43 AM   #57
enorbet
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OK. Hopefully back on track -

Mill J has painted a picture where the main or at least "obvious" alternative to just continuing the way things are as if climate isn't changing, regardless of the cause, is going "off the grid", returning to pre-20th Century lifestyles. Not only is that alternative not likely to happen I don't think that it even can happen at the very least while providing enough basic food for our still growing global population. There can be little doubt that technology is a double-edged sword. Very early in the transportation game I'm certain buggy whip makers were forced out of a livelihood when cars became more numerous than horse-drawn buggies. Audio recording gave musicians a way to earn essentially 24/7 by selling recordings rather than relying solely on live shows and technological improvements in processes and media made that increasingly profitable but then digital sharing has made that all but disappear. That doesn't mean Music has ended. It just means as an industry it has yet to adapt to survive. I hope to show that "flipping the breaker for good" isn't a workable solution, let alone the only alternative and that other measures can work and hopefully will work.

A few others here, notably jefro, jsbjsboo1, seem to think that accepting that humans have powerfully affected climate is tantamount to some kind of "blame game" and distrust science while ChuangTzu basically accepts science as a useful tool but thinks some sort of payoff is in the making, corrupting or taking advantage of already corrupted scientists who are conspiring to create a windfall hoax. I hope to take away any concern for blame which to me is like getting stuck in a revolving door, never getting either outside or inside but remaining stuck at the gate, spinning one's wheels so to speak. I also hope to at least cast doubt on any money-driven hoax conspiracy theories right now by pointing out that those driven solely by money always look for the "easy score" and that is certainly heavily, even overwhelmingly, weighted in favor of the Status Quo - doing nothing and continuing to increase the burning of fossil fuels. The infrastructure supporting that side is immense and the wealth and political influence they wield is second to none, certainly nowhere near the same league by orders of magnitude as anything considered "alternative". Smart gamblers bet with the house if their pockets are deep enough. The rest of us either take our chances or don't gamble at all.

Clean energy is going to happen, if slowly (maybe too slowly for future generations) because it simply has to if Necessity is the Mother of Invention. Regardless of whether or not your research leads you to conclude what is the cause nobody with any sense can hope to deny that climate change, rapid climate change in the scale of things, is occurring and that whatever the cause people can work to at least minimize the rate of change and hope that in time it could even be reversed effectively without having to go back to 1920, let alone 1820.

Here is an excellent article regarding Carbon Capture both it's value in climate control and the remarkable improvements that are taking place lowering it's costs, improving it's productivity and profitability while attacking the largest, most important sources affecting climate over which humans have some control. I hope all here find this enlightening and hopeful.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...limate-change/
 
Old 08-15-2018, 11:24 AM   #58
rokytnji
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Well. The way Drinking water in the USA takes daily hits lately.

Monsanto seems to be affecting something?

But industrial waste seems a given while everyone worries about the weather.

Last edited by rokytnji; 08-15-2018 at 11:26 AM.
 
Old 08-15-2018, 12:35 PM   #59
enorbet
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Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
Well. The way Drinking water in the USA takes daily hits lately.

Monsanto seems to be affecting something?

But industrial waste seems a given while everyone worries about the weather.
Absolutely agreed! I strongly suspect in the future there will be wars fought over water. It also seems Monsanto has a very cross-eyed view on "crapping in the kitchen" in other areas. I was shocked to discover the laws they have lobbied for and successfully influenced to pass (and I suppose likely in concert with some other corporations) that causes seeds to be not viable and actually fine and/or jail some who try to grow their own. Many cities now prohibit growing anything but house plants and lawns anymore at considerable risk of jurisprudence.

That said, even all of that, water and plants, are obviously powerfully affected by climate. These are by no means trivial concerns and climate is easily in the Top 5 since it is the foundation of the others. Everything on Earth is connected.... Earth, the planet sized Bio Dome.
 
Old 08-15-2018, 01:03 PM   #60
Mill J
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Not only is that alternative not likely to happen I don't think that it even can happen at the very least while providing enough basic food for our still growing global population.
Sorry, but I disagree. We need to think outside the box. Do a lot of research on this. This is not exactly off grid though.

All that talk about feeding future generations is overrated. Think about it for one minute... How many people grow a garden anymore? How many of people do you know that have 10+ acres of land that isn't beneficial to any body? Why? because it's WORK!!!, You can't even get a tractor in there, I really don't need to produce anything off of it, etc, etc, etc. It's much easier to buy this stuff at the supermarket. Who cares that it's sprayed with all sorts of chemicals. It beats working.

I think you get the point. Take a regular 40 acre field: You can produce large amounts of either wheat, corn, or beans in one year. Or you could take another route: grow smaller amounts of multiple vegetables, row crops, nuts, fruit, meat, etc. When properly managed, they complement each other, and improve each other. And more than anything you can eliminate chemicals, and you almost never have a complete crop failure.
 
  


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