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View Poll Results: Human Caused Climate Change is Real?
Yes 21 77.78%
No. It's a Hoax 4 14.81%
Jury Isn't In Yet 2 7.41%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-05-2018, 09:28 AM   #31
Mill J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
If I'm a passenger in a car that is being driven dangerously fast given weather conditions because it is raining cats and dogs, I don't care about any argumentative distinction between what will cause the likely upcoming accident, the rain or the car's velocity. I just want the driver to ease off the gas
But what if the driver has plenty of "under the table" money? You won't be arguing with a couple million $$ knowing if you reach your destination it'll be worth your while.

The problem I see it that no matter what we do, the real culprits are the under the table type. Who's planning to argue with them?

Meanwhile we suffer because it's getting illegal to ship a chainsaw, trimmers, etc with adjustable carburetors. The new trucks "require" exhaust fluid or it won't start. Just to mention a few, You get the point.

All the while the real culprits probably never worked a day in their life.

And even you. Would you break out a bicycle(these are dangerous anymore, everybody's in to much of a hurry) and sell you vehicles? How about flipping the main breaker on your electrical meter, for good?
 
Old 08-05-2018, 04:26 PM   #32
enorbet
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Mill J the analogy has a problem in that I wouldn't consider the bux as a reasonable incentive to allow continued high danger of death. Money's no good in the grave. I do see what you mean however but I disagree with what solutions you imagine. I dislike regulations as much as anyone maybe even more than most since I too think one of the regulations you mentioned is bullshit. Chainsaws hardly constitute a major threat but that's still a small price to pay for preventing a disaster that affects everyone. The diesel truck fluid filters seems an even smaller price to pay especially IF the playing field was anywhere near level. The regulations of corporate contribution are not nearly as stringent and more easily circumvented.

Be that as it may, there are alternatives to internal combustion vehicles that could have had a substantial impact decades ago, and a few that at least help now that are short of going bicycle although I suspect there are ways to make that attractive to city dwellers. I live way out in the country so although bicycles won't work well for me they don't have to. I don't need to drive much partly because I consolidate my excursions and work mostly from home.

As for electricity. a far more important issue in many ways, let me relate an event for you. Back when Jimmy Carter was president, I worked for a solar company that did provide for home systems (wholesale to plumbers) but specialized in industrial systems like car washes, hospitals, industrial laundries etc. We were very successful, so much so that the electric company was concerned so they built an all electric home designed from the ground-up to conserve energy. It was a 2000 sq ft home with a family of four living in it. During the months I saw from January through March in Western Colorado where days well below 0 (zero) Fahrenheit (10-20 below was not uncommon) were far more common than not, their monthly TOTAL electric bill, including electric heat, never exceeded $35.00 USD. Partially electric homes having 8-10 times that amount during those months were not at all uncommon.

The point is that a reduction down to 10% of current use is a HUGE impact and would not require "flipping the breaker for good". Furthermore even below that level is the simple fact that one is going to have severe difficulty fixing a problem that many don't even consider a problem but rather a hoax, which is exactly what Big Oil hoped to achieve so buying levels don't drop. There are ways to at least minimize the impact but before we can address that in earnest we have to admit there may actually be a looming disaster. The situation is such that even if all the evidence is wrong, if storms won't increase in intensity, if many harbors and coastal cities won't become flooded and unusable, if some areas become uninhabitable, if large numbers of sea creatures don't die off, etc. etc, etc. what will we have lost by being prudent? Shouldn't we err on the side of safety and caution? Won't civilization become more sustainable as well as safer if we make such changes?

Last edited by enorbet; 08-05-2018 at 04:28 PM.
 
Old 08-05-2018, 08:46 PM   #33
Mill J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Mill J the analogy has a problem in that I wouldn't consider the bux as a reasonable incentive to allow continued high danger of death. Money's no good in the grave. I do see what you mean however but I disagree with what solutions you imagine.
I'm not sure what solutions I imagine. You know as well as I do nobody's going to ditch a car for a bike, or throw the breaker

Quote:
I dislike regulations as much as anyone maybe even more than most since I too think one of the regulations you mentioned is bullshit. Chainsaws hardly constitute a major threat but that's still a small price to pay for preventing a disaster that affects everyone.
Very frustrating getting a new gas powered tool that has no carb adjustments on it. How can that be environmentally friendly when they end up in a landfill because they don't last worth a hoot. It takes nothing less then an aftermarket carb to make it usable for any length of time. Unless you run to the repair shop all the time.


The point I was making is: We as an average person living our daily life get the brunt of the "saving the environment" when the emissions that me and you contribute in our whole lives are probably < 5 minutes emissions for one large factory.

I am all for improving the world around me. But as long as the higher ups turn a deaf ear to where the most money comes from.....


//Warning Off Topic!
Somtimes I wish it would be possible to run
Code:
valgrind ./government
and see money leaks
 
Old 08-05-2018, 09:20 PM   #34
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Mill J, that's because it has nothing to do with saving the environment, never has never will be about it, that is a farce/scare tactic control mechanism to cause knee jerk emotional and irrational responses....
https://www.businessinsider.com/craz...house-2016-11/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/..._n_579286.html
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/christ...house-n2363571
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vzFeiKH1jQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaF-fq2Zn7I#t=4m33s (longer version)
http://www.celebcasas.com/oprah-winfreys-house.htm
https://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/bonos-house/
https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff...a-washington-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermejo_Park_Ranch
http://theladderranch.com/about/
 
Old 08-05-2018, 09:51 PM   #35
Mill J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Mill J, that's because it has nothing to do with saving the environment, never has never will be about it, that is a farce/scare tactic control mechanism to cause knee jerk emotional and irrational responses....
Couldn't agree more. That "Environment Friendly" sticker sells the product. Those same words, create a lot of hush money/bribes, fines and lots of other revenue. It's a huge racket.

What's worse a lot of supposedly "safe" things ARE destroying the environment, as I mentioned in my first post. Luckily Mon$anto is facing lawsuits. Unfortunately they are big enough, it probably won't affect them. That's just one instance...
 
Old 08-06-2018, 12:53 PM   #36
enorbet
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So should I conclude that you think "Since rich people exist, Human Caused Global Climate Change is a hoax"?
 
Old 08-06-2018, 01:58 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
So should I conclude that you think "Since rich people exist, Human Caused Global Climate Change is a hoax"?
Where on this huge beautiful blue Earth did you get that idea?

It has nothing to do with rich people or rich countries, yet it does have everything to do with some rich people and some rich companies/entities/groups etc... It is an elaborate well organized, 100 + year old scheme to take from the masses in order to consolidate money, power etc... in the hands of the few. That method has a political ideology behind it...hmmm, I think I mentioned that in a different thread about the same topic.

Those links were to illustrate some of the most prevalent doomsday preachers and the obvious hypocrisy of their message. Which is no different then the TV preacher living in a mega mansion with his/her private jet, yacht etc... while preaching the message of a man/prophet/teacher/etc... that espoused the virtue's of letting go, not having attachments, frugality etc....

Al Gore's inconvenient truth is that he has become extremely rich from the man made climate hoax, his companies (invested in) are the very companies behind the Carbon tax/credit scheme promoted around the world. He is just one example. Let's see him ditch the private jet, ditch the massive fleet of armored vehicles and live in a house that is 5,000 sq ft. or less....don't hold your breath on that one. Oh wait, since we exhale CO2 maybe we should hold our breath, oh damn, that might be the next tax, a penny/half-pence per breath. Funny how these scientists make fun of the doomsday preachers on TV and in churches, yet replace God with Science, Jesus with Climate Change and its the same message, with the same send us your money at the end of the TV segment. Charlatans/Hucksters/Shysters....

Again, I have already pointed out that the climate changes in predictable natural cycles; what's new is some people/companies/entities etc... have discovered a way to profit from this natural occurrence and have spent billions of dollars propagating and disseminating that scheme.

Should we be smart and good stewards of the planet, of course, should man use that to control and tyrannize his fellow mankind, no way. I'll give you an example of being a good steward: There is a Taoist principle (Lao Tzu was one person who taught this), "Before mankind invents something he should thoroughly research all possible negative side effects, and eliminate them, until no negative side effects remain, if this is not possible then it is better to not invent that thing."

More ref: https://designyoutrust.com/2011/08/r...necker-island/

Quite strange for the founder of the World Wildlife fund to:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-tiger-6174056
http://www.pandaleaks.org/book/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-approach.html

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 08-06-2018 at 02:05 PM.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 12:25 AM   #38
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
It has nothing to do with rich people or rich countries, yet it does have everything to do with some rich people and some rich companies/entities/groups etc... It is an elaborate well organized, 100 + year old scheme to take from the masses in order to consolidate money, power etc... in the hands of the few. That method has a political ideology behind it...hmmm, I think I mentioned that in a different thread about the same topic.
so you're saying "because some people are corrupt and will use just about everything to get richer and more powerful, everything they abuse to achieve that is automatically a hoax"?

conspiration theorists' horse manure.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 01:13 AM   #39
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ChuangTzu I see that you are passionate about your politics and that's a good thing or can be unless it leads one to view everything as binary Us vs/ Them. That is much like what is often called "reverse racism" which is really just "racism" practiced by those that feel victimized by racism and lash out, blind to their absolute similarity to those they consider the perpetrators excepting the object of their focus. Things and especially people just aren't that simple as polemics can lead us to believe.

Yes you have pointed out that Climate Change is in predictable natural cycles and that is basically a truism but at the same time by using the term "natural" in your way takes humans out of the equation when really it can be accurately said that on one level there is no difference between volcanoes, asteroids, sea creatures, dinosaurs and mammals in that they all have been a part of that equation. The evidence that the vast and increasing burning of fossil fuels has had a profound effect on Climate is a matter of historical record that displays an anomaly just like that in other epochs where catastrophic events occurred. Some of those were nearly instantaneous other built slowly for eons but the effects are recorded in rocks, ice, and the fossil record. Liberals didn't invent the human catalyst anymore than cyanobacteria created Huronian Glaciation. The major difference is that bacteria couldn't realize or communicate their catalytic effect. Apparently some of us humans can't either.

Note: If you find that comparison offensive let me employ a Sicilian cliche - "Only a true friend will inform you when your face is dirty". It is not my intent to defame you. It is my intent to upset your comfort zone to incite you to be more objective. Progression mathematics is a mature mechanic and the anomaly is very clear, regardless of anyone's politics or philosophy.

Last edited by enorbet; 08-07-2018 at 01:20 AM.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 02:59 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Progression mathematics is a mature mechanic and the anomaly is very clear, regardless of anyone's politics or philosophy.
this.

again, the relevant xkcd.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 05:28 AM   #41
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Hazel already pointed out disturbing alteration of ocean currents which is a hugely important clue. Nobody with any credibility within the field has any doubts that humans have powerfully affected climate change, the difficulty is nailing down the rate of change which commonly outpaces even the most dire predictions. Here's a good bit of scientific data regarding that as well as "Natural Forces".

Quote:
Originally Posted by insideclimatenews.org
Oceans have enormous capacity to hold heat. So ocean temperatures, unlike temperatures on land, are slow to fluctuate from natural forces, such as El Niño/La Niña patterns or volcanic eruptions. Think night and day, said Trenberth. As night falls on land, so do air temperatures. But in the oceans, temperatures vary little.

This makes it easier to tease out the influence of human-caused climate change from other possible causes of surging ocean heat.

According to research by Trenberth and Lijing Cheng, of the Institute for Atmospheric Physics in Beijing, the heat storage in the oceans during 2015 and 2016 amounted to a stunning force: an increase of 30.4 X 1022 joules of energy roiling Earth's systems since 1960. The overload is helping throw off Earth's energy balance, needed for the climate to be relatively stable. Put another way: The excess energy amassed in the oceans since 1992 is roughly equivalent to 2,000 times U.S. electricity generation during the past decade, the researchers explained.

Ocean temperatures have been rising about 0.12 degrees Celsius per decade on average over the past 50 years. The higher temperatures are driving marine life toward the poles in search of livable habitats, bleaching coral reefs, and causing severe impacts on fisheries and aquacultures. They also contribute to more frequent and intense extreme weather events. In the three back-to-back deadly hurricanes of 2017—Harvey, Irma and Maria—warmer waters played a role in worsening the storms.
Not only are these increases explainable by human contributions, but it has been impossible to discover any other remotely possible cause. To the best of our knowledge and research it is an open and shut case.

There is much more data at the full article here ===>>> https://insideclimatenews.org/news/0...global-warming

Incidentally since it was stated here that "this is not science but tyranny", a conspiratorial hoax, let me mention that I have considerable training in Science and Engineering and I subscribe to several science oriented forums... serious ones where the percentage of PhDs is very high and in almost all of them discussion of Human Caused Climate Change is disallowed and the reason is clearly stated. All serious scientists know it is real and true, the evidence is overwhelming, and trying to argue with those dead set on denying it for political, economic, or philosophical agendas is both a waste of time and does not fall under the heading of Science but (naturally) under politics, economics and philosophy. Other such disallowed subjects deemed unworthy of debate in the face of the evidence is "The Apollo Moon Landing Hoax". There's just no sense in getting bogged down in bullshit.

One of the forums I habituate that is extremely serious, just click this and take a look around, https://www.physicsforums.com, has a few admins who joined in the filming of parts of the documentary film recording glacier melt, --- Chasing Ice --- These people are not climatologists but physicists, chemists, etc. and have no dog in this race biasing them to yell "The Sky is Falling!". They'd really rather find evidence that it is not occurring but the evidence is simply overwhelming and not a little scary.

Last edited by enorbet; 08-07-2018 at 05:56 AM.
 
Old 08-07-2018, 06:00 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
so you're saying "because some people are corrupt and will use just about everything to get richer and more powerful, everything they abuse to achieve that is automatically a hoax"?

conspiration theorists' horse manure.
No, I am saying they are indicative of the corruption behind the movement which is more rooted in politics then science. Or perhaps, politics co-opted the science behind it, but that is another debate/possibility.

Regarding the manure comment, it is the best fertilizer to grow and cultivate vegetation in an organic matter, so thank you. Horse shit is one reason mankind can feed itself.

Perhaps you are in favor of this:
https://yournewswire.com/soros-faceb...rming-deniers/
https://www.triplepundit.com/2015/09...enier-skeptic/
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-env...change-deniers
 
Old 08-07-2018, 06:01 PM   #43
ChuangTzu
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F. Scott Fitzgerald:
“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.”
 
Old 08-07-2018, 07:33 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Regarding the manure comment, it is the best fertilizer to grow and cultivate vegetation in an organic matter, so thank you. Horse shit is one reason mankind can feed itself.
Absolutely True! I've used many tons just for that purpose. It'll get you the nicest soil you'll ever grow something in.
 
Old 08-08-2018, 02:02 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
so you're saying "because some people are corrupt and will use just about everything to get richer and more powerful, everything they abuse to achieve that is automatically a hoax"?

conspiration theorists' horse manure.
Dear ondoho and other participants of this thread,
Personal attacks are not tolerated at LQ. We may disagree, but we do it politely. Please avoid that kind of a language. Thank you.
 
  


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