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View Poll Results: Human Caused Climate Change is Real?
Yes 37 72.55%
No. It's a Hoax 11 21.57%
Jury Isn't In Yet 3 5.88%
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:36 AM   #421
Luridis
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Originally Posted by michaelk View Post
Since the industrial revolution the world population has grown from about 1 billion to almost 8 billion with the greatest growth rate starting at the end of WWII. Sea temperature rise and CO2 emissions kind of correlate to population growth and it seems unrealistic in my opinion that humanity has not caused some type of environmental changes to occur.

Just as a what if... In today's political climate how many years would it take to have an international agreement to ban CFCs? Would today's EPA still have pushed for an international ban?
That's reasonable. How much we've added to it is an open question. But how much is related to other things being "down graded" because they don't fit the popular science narrative? There was an article I read a while ago about a physicist who was trying to get a paper published about the sun's effects on terrestrial weather. She believed that we may have a cooling period coming in the next few decades due to changes in the solar wind, and solar radiance, etc. The whole article was not about her research, but about how all of the other contributors pushed back on the preview copy because, "do we really want to be publishing research that posits that its going to get cooler in the future?" (para.) My problem with modern science is that its becoming too cult and/or pop culture like to take a lot of it seriously. Dissenters to the dominant narrative simply aren't welcome, so how can there be any genuine challenge of popular theories? I've seen similar discussions in the past about physicists who where reasonably skeptical of the dark matter theory.

Last edited by Luridis; 08-20-2019 at 10:38 AM.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 12:39 PM   #422
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How much we've added is an open question but it is all additive I believe. The Earth is a closed and finite system and the atmosphere can only absorb so much CO2 or whatever and the excess has to go somewhere like the Oceans. What happens in your backyard affects Antarctica.

Solar activity has been trending down over the last few sun spot cycles (as an Amateur Radio activity is important to RF propagation). If it does drop over a longer period of time it could cause cooler temperatures. It might happen.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 02:47 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Luridis has a point. That Texas dig was a classic ad hominem argument. I also agree with him that the developing world is not going to forgo its industrial revolution simply because we used ours to screw up the planet's atmosphere. In effect, we have made ourselves rich and now tell them that they must stay poor to save mankind from extinction. They are very likely to answer, "F*** mankind! If we all have to die, we want to die with food in our bellies."
I totally agree with you and Luridus that it is indeed an uphill battle and even a bit disingenuous and hypocritical to condemn others for taking the path we did to get ahead. It is not going to be easy... and that was the salient point. It is not going to be easy for climate scientists either so to posit some imagined windfall is their motivation for skewing the data is what is ludicrous.

However I truly do not understand why both you and Luridus see the comment about Texas as a dig against Luridus. It is NOT an ad hominem argument. It does point out an actual environment with which he and others must contend. Have you or he actually followed the history of the Koch family just to name one example, let alone the history of the US in the 20th Century? Do you guys even grasp the revelation of how much power these guys have to alter media and government, even in tiny little examples like the decades old Oil Depletion Allowance? In that one little example I ask you, "What other business gets tax breaks because of the mere threat of dwindling resources?" I can't name one.

Big Oil (and Coal etc) dwarfs almost every other business globally, let alone in just one nation, and in this nation the state of Texas is where it grew the fastest and most of the Oil Men reside. That state would dry up and blow away if suddenly Oil and Natural Gas was of little or no value. If you don't think that affects the government of Texas and influences what textbooks are funded, what news stories appear in papers and on TV, etc etc etc, I really don't know what to tell you. It is everywhere for sure but the locus and focus is most definitely in Texas. I made no personal remarks to Luridus. It is not any of our faults where we were born and grew up, but it does matter.

Last edited by enorbet; 08-20-2019 at 02:49 PM.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 03:06 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
What are these funding gains you speak of? And what is your evidence that they are "ludicrous" and "extreme" in being just that. You appear to be easily riled and I feel as if you are jumping all over the place in your... argument, as it were.
The "funding gains" are what most deniers posit are the motivations for skewing data or outright lying about climate change. I'm saying climate scientists are not going to see hige gains or losses however it goes, whether they lie or not, beyond they lose credibility and resume points with a reputation for "mercenary 'science'"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
Sophistry? Yes, indirect arguments count, because they are deceptive by attacking a person's character or anything that is not directly related to the point they made. A schoolyard version would be: You have cooties, so no one's going to listen to you. Where? Your comment about me residing in Texas where "most of the fossil fuel resides" is just that. Your comment appears to be an attempt to condemn me and any argument I am making by implication. That implication is that Texas is full of fossil fuels and since I reside there I must benefit from all that dirty, climate destroying fossil fuel money. You also imply that I must be personally aware of lifestyles paid for by fossil fuels which are, by your estimation, somewhat excessive. (Especially compared to those poor & impoverished client scientists you're defending.) All of that is nonsense for many reasons, but the most important is that I left Texas more than 2 years ago. So, no Sir, you cannot condemn me with the black letter P and throw me in with the Beverly Hillbilly's. What you're attempting to do here is make an emotional argument, I won't bother responding to this sort of thing for very long, this sort of argument is boring.
Maybe I was less than clear but pointing out the environment in which you reside is hardly an attack against you personally. If I was pointing a finger at you personally, as the saying goes, I would have three more pointing back at me since I was born and grew up long after the rise of fossil fuel power (before that it was sugar and textiles, furs, etc) and I not only recognize this country and every country in the world would be far worse off were it not for fossil fuels, but I personally benefited and enjoyed all those benefits. When I was in High School gasoline was $0.23/gallon but well beyond, that fossil fuels quite literally fueled everything of any importance in the environment into which I was born and more or less thrived. So please, do not take personal offense at my noting the exceptional bias into which I surmise you were born.. I'm only a few steps behind. One example - The Koch brothers have become so pwerful they don't even bother to hide it anymore. Now they brag that they can ruin the life and carrer of any politician, state or federal, that even makes a single remark supporting the concept of Anthropogenic Global Climate Change. Surely you realize if their reach is that long, what that says about it closer to home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
Now, whats this about middle management? Look man, I cannot follow thoughts you post only part of them. If you're too frantic to get all that messy internal dialogue written down in one go, I suggest you do it a piece at a time, in a notepad or something and then post it here when it is a complete thought. (Crap, maybe I shouldn't mention something Microsoft made, you might find a reason to digress (read: rant) there too.)
Geez, man! The pint was simply that given the circumstances people closely tied to fossil fuel profits have a LOT to gain by denying the Science. Scientists, otoh, not only have little to gain, but will also lose considerable in the fight to combat a global problem, People in fossil fuels seem to figure, "If the plane is gonna crash, I'm gonna be sure I have enough bucks to buy a parachute... and worst case, at least I'll be buried in a really nice suit". No?

Last edited by enorbet; 08-20-2019 at 03:07 PM.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 03:33 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
That's reasonable. How much we've added to it is an open question. But how much is related to other things being "down graded" because they don't fit the popular science narrative? There was an article I read a while ago about a physicist who was trying to get a paper published about the sun's effects on terrestrial weather. She believed that we may have a cooling period coming in the next few decades due to changes in the solar wind, and solar radiance, etc. The whole article was not about her research, but about how all of the other contributors pushed back on the preview copy because, "do we really want to be publishing research that posits that its going to get cooler in the future?" (para.) My problem with modern science is that its becoming too cult and/or pop culture like to take a lot of it seriously. Dissenters to the dominant narrative simply aren't welcome, so how can there be any genuine challenge of popular theories? I've seen similar discussions in the past about physicists who where reasonably skeptical of the dark matter theory.
While some news writer may have interpreted (or manufactured) such a concern, Science does not have a problem with dissent. Science can't prove hardly anything. What it does best is disprove, or falsify, so "the last man standing" has some credibility. Then predictions are made and if they bear out, that credibility grows. Specifically climate scientists, of whom 97% agree on anthropogenic global climate change, also agree that one of the more alarming bits of data is that we are warming when we should be cooling had there not been a locally more powerful contributor. They don't disagree that in the past such Sun cycles caused cooling. That we are instead warming is particularly alarming.

Science isn't becoming "too cult and/or pop culture" only pop reporting is. Even someone as pop oriented as Neil deGrasse Tyson points out that "media always headlines supposed science related articles with 'Scientists will have to go back to the drawing board after this...' ". This does not exist in even Scientific American let alone Nature or arxiv.org. I subscribe to peer reviewed papers and websites and most of them do exist somewhat in "ivory towers", unconcerned with "the rabble in the streets". Most take skewed side glances at scientists that "mix it up" in pop culture. Neil is one who is enjoying a change in view. Carl Sagan was heavily criticized as a marginalized scientist because of his popular appeal. It was only when the highly respected Stephen Hawking wrote "A Brief History of Time" that any respect was finally begrudgingly conceded for those who act as Prometheus. That said regarding cult-like, there is not one single scientist so "revered" as to be above reproach. There is no respect whatsoever for "argument from Authority". The best of them get routinely raked over the coals.

Just FTR, one extremely serious forum to which I subscribe, Physicsforums.com, does not allow discussions on Religion, Philosophy, OR directly about Climate Change. Those topics are considered closed as either speculative (not scientific) as in the case of religion and philosophy, or overwhelmingly likely as in the case of Climate Change. A handful of board members accompanied the crew that produced the important, real science, data-gathering film "Chasing Ice" and they were only allowed to write about how the data was recorded, not any conclusions.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 04:19 PM   #426
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Maybe I was less than clear but pointing out the environment in which you reside is hardly an attack against you personally.
Quote:
Shoot! You apparently live in Texas where most of the fossil fuel wealth resides.
You were attempting to discredit my view point based upon an association. You mentioned Texas because Texas has evil fossil fuel and you, as a member of the online inquisition, must point out that I am somehow associated with the evil Witch called fossil fuel. As you said, "Shoot! You apparently live in Texas." OOOOH, you're saying that, since I lived in Texas, I must have fossil fuel privilege.

I get it now. And, in your case, there's only one thing left for me to say...

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - J.C.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 04:51 PM   #427
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Solar solar systems are a lot like seeds that grow into *systems, trees and there's drop seeds and later died or sooner if some certain creatures comes along!

But we've also invented words like oblivious and stupidity so teach them to the children‽

Last edited by jamison20000e; 08-20-2019 at 04:53 PM. Reason: :banghead:
 
Old 08-20-2019, 06:27 PM   #428
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Again, not that I've'd ever voted in such a broken system but Andrew Yang thinks well...

Last edited by jamison20000e; 08-21-2019 at 05:29 PM. Reason: Typ0T
 
Old 08-21-2019, 07:16 AM   #429
enorbet
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Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
You were attempting to discredit my view point based upon an association. You mentioned Texas because Texas has evil fossil fuel and you, as a member of the online inquisition, must point out that I am somehow associated with the evil Witch called fossil fuel. As you said, "Shoot! You apparently live in Texas." OOOOH, you're saying that, since I lived in Texas, I must have fossil fuel privilege.

I get it now. And, in your case, there's only one thing left for me to say...

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. - J.C.
Why this silly repetition of "evil fossil fuel" when I already pointed out I don't see it as evil? The only evil I see is in people, not things, and I can't even honestly say people like the Koch brothers are evil since they are only protecting what they see as in their interest like everyone else. The only difference is they create a less than level playing field because of the weight of their enormous power. The choices you and I make affect maybe a handful of people. They affect entire nations and to only a slightly lesser degree, the entire planet. What is this inquisition? Have I tortured you? I most definitely wasn't assuming you have fossil fuel privilege since I don't know you. Only a few have that privilege and I have no way of knowing if you are included in that elite crowd.

I am assuming the State of Texas has a point of view skewed by the heavy influence that lives there. Those powerful elite being reasonable about anthropogenic climate change would be like the fox guarding the hen house, no? Your living in Texas doesn't force you to be biased, but it does very likely influence you. That said, I do regret writing it since it is a trivial point, non-conclusive, and in fact demonstrates my own bias. Texas seems less like one of the States and more like a Nation... but then again, I have to give credit to Austin. Any town that erects a statue to Stevie Ray, can't be all bad.
 
Old 08-21-2019, 07:49 AM   #430
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I am assuming the State of Texas has a point of view skewed by the heavy influence that lives there. Those powerful elite being reasonable about anthropogenic climate change would be like the fox guarding the hen house, no? Your living in Texas doesn't force you to be biased, but it does very likely influence you. That said, I do regret writing it since it is a trivial point, non-conclusive, and in fact demonstrates my own bias. Texas seems less like one of the States and more like a Nation... but then again, I have to give credit to Austin. Any town that erects a statue to Stevie Ray, can't be all bad.
[Removed, and posting privileges in General suspended]

Last edited by Luridis; 08-21-2019 at 07:50 AM.
 
Old 08-21-2019, 05:30 PM   #431
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Talking

So, coal is your thing!
 
Old 08-22-2019, 01:11 AM   #432
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Soooo.... Luridus .... you're one of those End Times guys?
 
Old 08-22-2019, 12:50 PM   #433
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Gonna be warmer next year

https://www.vox.com/2019/8/22/208282...fire-greenland
 
Old 08-22-2019, 04:21 PM   #434
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That sucks!
 
Old 08-23-2019, 11:22 AM   #435
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Soooo.... Luridus .... you're one of those End Times guys?
Are you one of those pee-sitting-down guys? (See, I can do that too.)

Ever been on a roller coaster? You know that point where the train gets to the top and the weight of the first few cars starts to pull you through the top. You hear that clink, clink, clink right before you plummet. Shhh... Now listen. Can you hear that? It's the clink, clink, clink of Western Civilization.
 
  


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