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View Poll Results: Human Caused Climate Change is Real?
Yes 37 72.55%
No. It's a Hoax 11 21.57%
Jury Isn't In Yet 3 5.88%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-13-2019, 06:03 PM   #406
enorbet
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A new book "Kochland" uncovers just how deeply David and Charles planned and executed early Anthropogenic Climate Change denial. It just might make anyone who isn't in the fossil fuel business angry af and it should.
 
Old 08-13-2019, 06:11 PM   #407
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Why We Should Care.

https://pmdvod.nationalgeographic.co...ws__535946.mp4
 
Old 08-13-2019, 08:00 PM   #408
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2°C: Beyond the limit: Extreme climate change has arrived in America

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hange-america/
 
Old 08-14-2019, 04:57 AM   #409
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In July, we had our hottest day on record in the UK! However I must say I have been more uncomfortable before, for example during the summer of 1976. Probably that was because I had the sense to keep my blinds down all day so that the sun could not get into my living room.
 
Old 08-14-2019, 06:57 AM   #410
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Arrow

As a kid I remember snow mounds too big to open our door, as a kid!

Sure changes happen, up, down, all around,,, but, capitalism and big industries are not going away; you want to know how much shrink wrap we waste and\or "recycle" in my freezer warehouse, where we ship almost 5 million cases of food quarterly‽

F no u don't!!!

Babies get fairytales!
 
Old 08-14-2019, 07:01 AM   #411
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And government subsidies too, just like farmers poisoning you with *corns* new DNA!

PS: the corns DNA isn't bad, what many companies do with it afterwards is...

Last edited by jamison20000e; 08-19-2019 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Added
 
Old 08-14-2019, 07:31 AM   #412
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If Western science's goal was still objectivity and news was still about reporting facts, I'd put more stock into things said in NYT. But that is not the case. Today the goal of the Western scientific community is to acquire funding. Funding that must be provided by a government where everything it supports becomes a political activity. Basically, if you have a cause you can now shop for some research that supports that cause. After all scientists, being typically smart people, have long-since figured out where their bread gets buttered.

I don't trust the news, my assumption is that it's 10% facts and 90% opinion, most of the latter being political spin.
I don't trust what's posted on "social media", most of it is useless information.
I don't trust what people say, as most of them are trying to make money or get laid.

Could the climate be changing? Yes. I suspect that the climate has been changing continuously throughout history. (Did you really believe that the ancient Egyptians went to all the trouble to build those Pyramids in the middle of a desert?) Do we really understand all of the factors that go into why this may be happening? Probably not. Are there people will use the possibility to their political or financial advantage? Absolutely.

Last edited by Luridis; 08-14-2019 at 07:35 AM.
 
Old 08-14-2019, 01:49 PM   #413
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
If Western science's goal was still objectivity and news was still about reporting facts, I'd put more stock into things said in NYT. But that is not the case. Today the goal of the Western scientific community is to acquire funding. Funding that must be provided by a government where everything it supports becomes a political activity. Basically, if you have a cause you can now shop for some research that supports that cause. After all scientists, being typically smart people, have long-since figured out where their bread gets buttered.

I don't trust the news, my assumption is that it's 10% facts and 90% opinion, most of the latter being political spin.
I don't trust what's posted on "social media", most of it is useless information.
I don't trust what people say, as most of them are trying to make money or get laid.

Could the climate be changing? Yes. I suspect that the climate has been changing continuously throughout history. (Did you really believe that the ancient Egyptians went to all the trouble to build those Pyramids in the middle of a desert?) Do we really understand all of the factors that go into why this may be happening? Probably not. Are there people will use the possibility to their political or financial advantage? Absolutely.
Unfortunately this deep distrust so many people assume, is something that has been cultivated. You might enjoy reading up about Russian (and likely others as well) Hacking to spread FUD in an extremely broad swath. They are spending enormous sums of money, infecting social media, testing the results and tweaking the formats for the greatest effect and they've learned it is a total Win-Win situation. If they manage to influence elections well that's a decent win for them but even if they don't they still act as The Fifth Column since the effect of such covert spreading of distrust creates an atmosphere in which people have little or no clue as to what is real and believable and what is "fake news".

Specific to this thread nobody needs to trust any corporate news source or even climate scientists. You can trust your own eyes by viewing photos of glacier recession and videos of massive ice shelves the size of entire countries breaking off into the sea, not to mention the rivers of melting ice flowing out from underneath which is why they break off. This is new. Maybe you don't but large numbers of people have lived near glaciers for millennia and many kept records. This has never happened before.

You could possibly go a step further and consider that while scientists must seek funding, they are also not each and every one a ruthless whore. In fact it is quite common that when one is forced into a compromise situation, one compensates in an effort to "balance out". Many scientists, actually I will go so far as to say since they must also live in this world, MOST scientists are explorers first before anything else and are principled and credible as much or moreso than any other person or respectable profession.

Aside from that I personally know people who are simple photographers and data gatherers as well as mountain climbers, etc. that have no special axe to grind who have noticed, then photographed receding ice and written about it and over time groups of other like concerned folks started recording for posterity. One such effort is the film "Chasing Ice". You really should view it.

Aside from all that, it has been common knowledge for many generations long before anyone suspected anything Global let alone Global Anthropogenic Climate effects, that in the past and on other planets, atmospheric CO2 and particulate matter have potent effects on weather and climate over large areas. The Industrial Revolution began roughly around 1790, very slowly at first and then gathering velocity like an avalanche. By 1890 it can be seen that many billions of tons of CO2 and particulate matter were being dumped into our atmosphere every year!... and now, for well over 100 years!. Just imagine if instead of gasses or fine particles it was billions of tons of garbage being dumped on the land. Do you think that might have an adverse effect? Do you think that might alarm you? I think it should.

Scientists live lives not much different from yours. They have to commute to work, eat, drink, raise families, and breathe the air just like you and everyone else. They are not invested in Climate Change. Scientists are painfully aware that while electric cars for example are growing in popularity, it is going to be a very long time, if ever, that there will be the supportive infrastructure that exists for fossil fuel engined vehicles. It is just cheaper and easier to "status quo", not rock the boat and go right along "business as usual".

Please do consider these things to protect your family and your sanity. It is not all lies out there and Global Climate Change is alarmingly and provably real. If by some ignorance on our part it turns out to not be the huge thing it seems to be, isn't it better to proceed with caution than to do nothing? I haven't said anything in this post about the vast wealth and power of corporations invested in fossil fuels and a few individuals who own them spreading denial backed by billions of dollars, but that is also provably real and they know they are lying. You should, too.

Last edited by enorbet; 08-14-2019 at 01:56 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2019, 01:35 PM   #414
Luridis
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Unfortunately this deep distrust so many people assume, is something that has been cultivated. (Your wall of text continues at some length...)
In all that I saw a couple of possible facts. The rest amounted to sophistry, political propaganda and no small amount of personal opinion. No "Roosky" is responsible for my distrust of the system. I came to that on my own. When you're smart and you pay attention, things are easy to pick up on. Not to mention that I've worked for part of the system and what I saw then was terrible. So, here is what I think bout climate change...

Is the climate changing? I don't think it has ever not been changing.
Is it getting warmer? Probably, given the facts.
Is human industry fully or partially responsible? I don't think there is enough information to know.
Is there historical precedent for warming temperatures after an ice age? Absolutely.
Did it ever warm this fast before? I don't know. If there was evidence it may have not made it beyond primary scientific literature. (This is a common occurrence. Anything that doesn't fit the current politicized scientific narrative does not typically make it into secondary scientific literature (read: textbooks, journals, magazines, etc.).
Is there possibly an exponential component to the temperature change? If so, it would explain a lot. And, if that's the case, whether we aided it or not, it is like already too late. Or do you think the second and third world are willing to forgo their industrial revolutions?
Could "climate change" research be used as a political hot button, marketing gimmick and grant money conveyer, regardless of how true it is or whether or not human industry has much to do with it?

Last edited by Luridis; 08-19-2019 at 01:47 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2019, 09:56 PM   #415
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
In all that I saw a couple of possible facts. The rest amounted to sophistry, political propaganda and no small amount of personal opinion.
Wow! Let's take that in reverse order since the last, "personal opinion", is the least damning.

Could you please quote something I wrote that is vacuous, lacking any evidence? Some things are absolute. There are no opinions allowed on the distance from New York to L.A.. Anyone can measure it. It's an absolute. I re-read my post and I don't see anything I can't back up at the worst to some reasonable degree.

"Political propaganda"? What exactly do you think my politics are, and what would that necessarily have to do with reliability of data that can be checked? We have already discussed and agreed that this issue has become a "political grandstand" but I am not a politician and I have only minor interest in politics. I am an engineer, trained in
Science, Math, Electronics and Mechanics, as well as the Physics that is the major part of the foundation of all of that. I'm only personally as well as publicly in this thread interested primarily interested in the data and it's credibility.

Now for the worst... "Sophistry". Since that is defined as "fallacious argument, especially with an intent to deceive". I defy you to quote something that was objectively designed to deceive. Just because you disagree doesn't make it deception. Example: I am extremely confidant the Earth is not flat. If you think the Earth is flat, my offering evidence like the nature of shadows not only on this Earth but OF the Earth on our Moon, cannot possibly be imagined an effort to deceive since it is at the very least one credible explanation of the events anyone can see and measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luridis View Post
No "Roosky" is responsible for my distrust of the system. I came to that on my own. When you're smart and you pay attention, things are easy to pick up on. Not to mention that I've worked for part of the system and what I saw then was terrible. So, here is what I think bout climate change...
<snip>

The Russian Hacker phenomenon was just an example that I hoped would be far enough away from Climate Change to avoid politics and get at the phenomenon of FUD, propaganda, and fake news versus real science and it has to do with the concept of "vested interest". Who do you suppose has a greater vested interest in their side of the Climate Change issue? Climate Scientists or corporations that profit off of fossil fuels? Please do factor in that scientists are quite aware the transition away from the burning of fossil fuels will impact everyone, including them and everyone they know and love in substantially negative ways. Scientists then are not vested because they both gain and lose no matter what the outcome, whereas dealers in fossil fuels are perfectly Black and White on the issue. They see it as almost totally in their favor to deny and fight the transition as long as they can, and almost totally negative should it be true or even if enough people become convinced it is a real likelihood. Now that's what I call "vested".

To compare any mere funding gains is ludicrous in the extreme. Shoot! You apparently live in Texas where most of the fossil fuel wealth resides. I'm sure you're at least somewhat aware of the wealth and power in and of fossil fuels. You surely must admit that even middle management in those firms have lifestyles the vast majority of scientists can't even imagine they'd ever reach, and many wouldn't want if they could imagine it.

My response is already too long so I snipped your conjectures at the end, but I am only too willing to respond, if you like.

Last edited by enorbet; 08-19-2019 at 10:00 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2019, 10:34 PM   #416
Luridis
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To compare any mere funding gains is ludicrous in the extreme. Shoot! You apparently live in Texas where most of the fossil fuel wealth resides. I'm sure you're at least somewhat aware of the wealth and power in and of fossil fuels. You surely must admit that even middle management in those firms have lifestyles the vast majority of scientists can't even imagine they'd ever reach, and many wouldn't want if they could imagine it.

My response is already too long so I snipped your conjectures at the end, but I am only too willing to respond, if you like.
What are these funding gains you speak of? And what is your evidence that they are "ludicrous" and "extreme" in being just that. You appear to be easily riled and I feel as if you are jumping all over the place in your... argument, as it were.

Sophistry? Yes, indirect arguments count, because they are deceptive by attacking a person's character or anything that is not directly related to the point they made. A schoolyard version would be: You have cooties, so no one's going to listen to you. Where? Your comment about me residing in Texas where "most of the fossil fuel resides" is just that. Your comment appears to be an attempt to condemn me and any argument I am making by implication. That implication is that Texas is full of fossil fuels and since I reside there I must benefit from all that dirty, climate destroying fossil fuel money. You also imply that I must be personally aware of lifestyles paid for by fossil fuels which are, by your estimation, somewhat excessive. (Especially compared to those poor & impoverished client scientists you're defending.) All of that is nonsense for many reasons, but the most important is that I left Texas more than 2 years ago. So, no Sir, you cannot condemn me with the black letter P and throw me in with the Beverly Hillbilly's. What you're attempting to do here is make an emotional argument, I won't bother responding to this sort of thing for very long, this sort of argument is boring.

Now, whats this about middle management? Look man, I cannot follow thoughts you post only part of them. If you're too frantic to get all that messy internal dialogue written down in one go, I suggest you do it a piece at a time, in a notepad or something and then post it here when it is a complete thought. (Crap, maybe I shouldn't mention something Microsoft made, you might find a reason to digress (read: rant) there too.)

Last edited by Luridis; 08-19-2019 at 10:42 PM.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 06:50 AM   #417
hazel
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Luridis has a point. That Texas dig was a classic ad hominem argument. I also agree with him that the developing world is not going to forgo its industrial revolution simply because we used ours to screw up the planet's atmosphere. In effect, we have made ourselves rich and now tell them that they must stay poor to save mankind from extinction. They are very likely to answer, "F*** mankind! If we all have to die, we want to die with food in our bellies."
 
Old 08-20-2019, 07:44 AM   #418
rokytnji
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Midland weatherman mentioned on the local news if the month ended now here.


It would be the hottest month on record , ever.

Edit: reading over last comments. We got got a lot of wind farms out here also.

@nd Edit: reading over sigs. I never kick a gift horse in the mouth.

Last edited by rokytnji; 08-20-2019 at 07:50 AM.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 08:41 AM   #419
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Well, so far the poster has brought up FUD, Russian hackers, fake news. This person has also accused me of trying to demean him/or her for daring to challenge much of what appears to be an opinion. I'm surprised I wasn't also called a misogynist, a racist and accused of personally clubbing baby seals as well. Look, stop personalizing my objections, I'm not attacking you or your beliefs, I just happen to disagree with some of them.
 
Old 08-20-2019, 10:04 AM   #420
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Quote:
Is human industry fully or partially responsible? I don't think there is enough information to know.
Since the industrial revolution the world population has grown from about 1 billion to almost 8 billion with the greatest growth rate starting at the end of WWII. Sea temperature rise and CO2 emissions kind of correlate to population growth and it seems unrealistic in my opinion that humanity has not caused some type of environmental changes to occur.

Just as a what if... In today's political climate how many years would it take to have an international agreement to ban CFCs? Would today's EPA still have pushed for an international ban?
 
  


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