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View Poll Results: Human Caused Climate Change is Real?
Yes 37 72.55%
No. It's a Hoax 11 21.57%
Jury Isn't In Yet 3 5.88%
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:46 PM   #376
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Sounds more like Government intervention than capitalism:
Quote:
The Climeworks founders told me they don’t believe their company will succeed on what they call “climate impact” scales unless the world puts significant prices on emissions, in the form of a carbon tax or carbon fee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolie Wool View Post
airships (humongous, slow, low cargo capacity)
Like blimps? Those would still use fossil fuels for engines, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolie Wool
The internet consumes massive amounts of energy that renewables don't have the capacity to supply without turning the earth into a solar-farm wasteland--and maybe not even then.
I think that's too pessimistic: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2...of-the-sahara/
Quote:
1.2% of the Sahara desert is sufficient to cover all of the energy needs of the world in solar energy
This is from 2016, and solar panels have gotten more efficient since then (of course this doesn't count transmission costs, what do to at night, etc; it just gives a vague idea of scale)
 
Old 02-13-2019, 06:37 PM   #377
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Not like blimps (too small), like zeppelins, but of course with helium instead of hydrogen. Their size and low density would allow them to run on electric drive systems that would have power density far too low for fixed-wing aircraft and have plenty of battery capacity.

As for covering the Sahara desert, nobody lives in the Sahara desert. Energy has to be produced where it is used, and most places are not the Sahara desert, and may not provide solar or wind power consistently, or much at all. Not to mention the manufacture of these alternative energy sources is often very carbon-intensive. In many ways our problem is not too little technology but too much--too many things being made, too much being consumed, too much work that really doesn't need doing being done because there is no other way for people to make a living under our economic system, too many old things being thrown away instead of being repaired and re-repaired. And we're already past the "we're fucked" point and on course for "we're totally fucked".

Also government intervention is absolutely compatible with capitalism, and necessary for capitalism. Governments set the ground rules that allow capitalism's system of private property to exist, enforce property rights, stabilize the capitalist system when it is in crisis, throw crumbs to the proles to keep them just satisfied enough not to revolt (believe it or not the inventor of the welfare state was not some soft-hearted progressive, but Otto von Bismarck of Prussia!), etc. Government "restrains" capitalism in the same way a governor restrains a steam engine from running out of control, over-revving, and blowing itself up, and these restraints were put in place by previous generations of capitalists who were far more farsighted than the current crop of numpties who dare call themselves "job creators".

Last edited by Woolie Wool; 02-13-2019 at 06:45 PM.
 
Old 02-14-2019, 07:05 AM   #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolie Wool View Post
Ending climate change will never be profitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolie Wool View Post
We don't have twelve years. We have negative twelve years, perhaps negative twenty. The "red line" was in the 1990s. Irreversible climate disaster is here, now. It is just not yet evenly distributed.
I separated the two above because I find them in conflict. Almost every day new discoveries support your 2nd quote above. Just this past week articles appeared revealing that glacier melt on Baffin Island has progressed so far that land that hasn't seen the Sun in over 40,000 years is now bare of ice. NASA and onsite teams in Antarctica have alarmingly discovered a melt zone inside the most important glacier in Antarctic, a void almost 1/4 mile tall and as large as Manhattan indicating melt is occurring much faster than was first noted. Business and Finance magazines routinely report that climate change is already costing the US obscene levels of dollars ... in the many billions of dollars compared to the level of disaster under cooler, "normal" conditions ie - had there not been the huge spike in CO2 occurring and accelerating for over 100 years now.

Since the line directly above "The Bottom Line" is "Variable Costs" it is my considered opinion that ending climate change WILL be profitable not only in money but in the health of Humanity's future, or we are in for a bumpier ride than is already underway.

Last edited by enorbet; 02-14-2019 at 07:36 AM.
 
Old 02-14-2019, 07:33 AM   #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
Sounds more like Government intervention than capitalism:
True Laissez Fair Capitalism has never existed "in the wild" only in the minds and wishful thinking of those like Adam Smith and Ayn Rand... and to some lesser extent in me. I still think it is the fairest, most effective and productive economic system in existence BUT inherently those with great wealth maneuver government for assistance and over time the formula of "The Rich Get Richer, and the Poor get Poorer" stifles the lifeblood of Capitalism, mainly competition. replacing the heady "up by your bootstraps, any boy can become President" Dream with tightly controlled rigidity... status quo written all in caps. We are once again approaching such a state now here in the US.

It was government intervention that made/allowed oil to become Big Oil and it started long before The Oil Depletion Allowance and in many more forms. Trying to change stifled, rigid economy heavily influenced if not out and out controlled by Big Oil and Coal (as the Koch Brothers now rightfully brag) is like the proverbial "bringing a knife to a gunfight". Real world Capitalism requires controls from time to time because it is cyclical. As soon as Taxation is instituted there is government control. It, too, is cyclical and as Thomas Jefferson once stated “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” I'd say "money" is the "blood" of a nation and a people and short of a truly bloody revolution the only alternative is Economics. Civilizations require Economics and Politics but those require vigilance and action to keep them on "an even keel". Checks and Balances.

It is still The Profit Motive propelling such innovation and we all need that, both the motivation and the innovation. In terms of actual usage Government Intervention has always been a part of Capitalism and likely it always will be. I think we need to deal with things as they are, not how we think they should be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
Like blimps? Those would still use fossil fuels for engines, I guess.
I guess you missed the part where the CO2 pulled from the atmosphere can make fuel. You do realize, I imagine, that Natural Gas is essentially Methane, right? The very reason all life of which we know anything about is Carbon-based is because it is so... "promiscuous". It couples with almost anything. WQe are stuck with burning things until renewable and long-term (Nuclear) power evolve to fully replace fossil fuel burning. It would be preferable that all humans recognized the actual Science behind Anthropogenic Climate Change and rallied together to fight a growing disaster, but lacking that permitting government controls in Economics is rapidly becoming the least of what will concern anyone. Yes, it's THAT serious.

Last edited by enorbet; 02-14-2019 at 07:45 AM.
 
Old 02-14-2019, 05:47 PM   #380
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
Like blimps? Those would still use fossil fuels for engines, I guess.
I guess you missed the part where the CO2 pulled from the atmosphere can make fuel. You do realize, I imagine, that Natural Gas is essentially Methane, right?
I didn't miss it, but I'm not sure what relevance it has to the airplanes vs blimps/zeppelins question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolie Wool View Post
Not like blimps (too small), like zeppelins, but of course with helium instead of hydrogen. Their size and low density would allow them to run on electric drive systems that would have power density far too low for fixed-wing aircraft and have plenty of battery capacity.
Ah, thanks, I see what you were getting at now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolie Wool
As for covering the Sahara desert, nobody lives in the Sahara desert. Energy has to be produced where it is used, and most places are not the Sahara desert, and may not provide solar or wind power consistently, or much at all. Not to mention the manufacture of these alternative energy sources is often very carbon-intensive.
That's why I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
(of course this doesn't count transmission costs, what do to at night, etc; it just gives a vague idea of scale)
 
Old 02-15-2019, 04:20 AM   #381
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
I didn't miss it, but I'm not sure what relevance it has to the airplanes vs blimps/zeppelins question.
Just that with conventional aircraft considerable energy requirements are involved in creating lift which is negated in lighter-than-air craft. That a method of pulling Carbon out of the atmosphere to provide lesser needs for a time as a stopgap measure gives us a means of profitability and support until a more complete transition becomes possible. I strongly suspect Nuclear is an important part of that transition equation which means it is likely disasters will have to increase before there is enough trust and fear to fund such development in the face of all the bad press Nuclear has suffered.
 
Old 02-15-2019, 04:23 AM   #382
enorbet
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BTW a second substantially larger (and older) impact crater has been discovered not very far from Hiawatha in Greenland. I sincerely hope such discoveries lead to funding the gathering of a LOT more information about our place in the Galaxy and whether such impacts are from a Time or a Space.
 
Old 02-16-2019, 11:42 AM   #383
rokytnji
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When it gets harder to breathe.

After diatoms struggle to survive in polluted oceans.
Tell me all about that needed whatever to survive.
 
Old 02-16-2019, 05:08 PM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I strongly suspect Nuclear is an important part of that transition equation which means it is likely disasters will have to increase before there is enough trust and fear to fund such development in the face of all the bad press Nuclear has suffered.
Sounds like the plan. "Never let a good crisis go to waste."

Preferably not anywhere close or upwind from where I live but it would be my civic duty to lay down my life in the name of the greater good.

The Green Dream could use the good press.
 
Old 03-02-2019, 04:57 AM   #385
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This month's Scientific American notes a growing concern over a surprising rate of change related to anthropogenic climate change. Our oceans, all of them, are losing oxygen. That is not the surprise given increasing ocean temperatures. The surprise if how much, how soon. The deoxygenation of our oceans has effects just like if deoxygenation of our atmosphere would have for we land creatures. Sea Animals are going to die and at increasing rates.

Here is the full article https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ientists-warn/

Coral reefs are already diminishing but the longer the currently known rate of deoxygenation of our oceans continues, even if the rate stops at the current rate and does not continue to increase (highly unlikely, even if we start to counter our effect on climate now), more and more complex lifeforms will begin to die out, also likely disrupting the ocean food chain. It's not a good sign, still it is one we must face. The only other option is likely the willingness to face our children and grand-children's eyes for failing to protect Mankind's most precious resources, and we are not talking about oil wells. People have asked here "How can we live without coal, gas, and gasoline?" Current conditions should make us ask "How can we live without food, water and breathable air?" Isn't that more fundamental and desirable? Yes. It can get that critical.

If, like me, you are uncertain of the degree humans are contributing to global climate change, but suspect the odds are quite high that we are contributing to a game-changer effect, then maybe we can and will do something to insure no major catastrophe occurs. If you believe this is all a hoax, then I suppose you will do nothing but continue to roll the dice against House Odds. All of us have already made a choice even if that is to refuse to weigh in at all. It's important to remember, that there is no law against increasing commitment to prudent behavior nor changing one's mind. Please do stay informed.

Last edited by enorbet; 03-02-2019 at 04:58 AM.
 
Old 03-02-2019, 04:31 PM   #386
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Current conditions should make us ask "How can we live without food, water and breathable air?" Isn't that more fundamental and desirable? Yes. It can get that critical.
Please forgive the slight diversion, but many (or at least some) people who are similarly convinced that man is destroying the earth have pinned their hopes on Mars. They want to colonize Mars with only intelligent, science-minded people who won't destroy it like we've destroyed Earth. I feel silly even mentioning this irony.
 
Old 03-02-2019, 09:44 PM   #387
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Hello Ken
I am one who does think it is important that we become a space faring species but not at the expense of our Home. I see no reason that the endeavor to correct our care of our Home can't be complementary to exploring our Solar System. In fact I think they can substantially benefit each other. I think it is doubtful that previous civilizations understood that they were, in effect, "taking a dump where they eat". I think ther very fact that Hoaxers exist now lends credence to the type of polarity that surely existed within those civilizations and that they lacked the Science to see the real story. You can't fix a problem you are either unaware of or cannot define.

Here is an article of how "Necessity is the Mother of Invention" actually tends to play out... at least once an event is seen for the necessity it really is. How would you like to fuel your home and your car for 85 cents a gallon? all the while with almost zero carbon footprint? It is beginning even now.

Check this out

https://www.ozy.com/rising-stars/hes...r-gallon/92686
 
Old 03-02-2019, 09:47 PM   #388
frankbell
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All I can add is that we had daffodils blooming in February.

From where I sit, we are past the tipping point and all bets are off.

I fear for my children.
 
Old 03-02-2019, 10:42 PM   #389
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I fear for people's children having children... (education may help but) we are the litter*(no pun).
 
Old 03-02-2019, 11:21 PM   #390
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I fear what those who fear will do.

Check out what Dr. Patrick Michaels said (YouTube).
 
  


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