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View Poll Results: Human Caused Climate Change is Real?
Yes 37 72.55%
No. It's a Hoax 11 21.57%
Jury Isn't In Yet 3 5.88%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-09-2018, 03:57 PM   #241
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
As expressed in my 1st link posted. Nobody is going to let all that oil under me alone to save any Climate Change.
Rightly so... just hopefully we are smart enough to not burn it up.
 
Old 12-09-2018, 04:24 PM   #242
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Question for the Natural Climate Change Deniers...Is it not true that life will evolve to face whatever changes are presented? In other words in one way or another life will find a way to survive.

Also, amidst all this doom and gloom stories, we often overlook the positive things:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...iscovered.html
https://www.kcet.org/redefine/30-new...an-los-angeles
https://newatlas.com/new-species-discovered-2017/52761/
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...vered-florida/
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/photo...Ay09V8#image=1
 
Old 12-09-2018, 04:28 PM   #243
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Ya think?

Both of us will probably die of old age before mobs develop smarts.
Face it.

Mobs are made of Human beings/usually. < here comes the hall monitor word corrections for mob >
Corp are mobs.
right wingers are mobs
left wingers are mobs.

All with their own agenda. Smarts has nothing to do with mobs.
You should watch the oil news out here locally.
They, < the employed oil executive commenting on latest news >, got hard ons.
So do the local city govts.
Every ones eyes are gleaming with dollar signs .
Taxes and companies throwing chump change compared to what they are making out here.

Meanwhile. Back at the ranch
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...il-price-rises

That is the road I take when I visit my younger brother.
More change. Not for the better. Life threatening.
 
Old 12-09-2018, 04:31 PM   #244
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Quote:
the positive things:
Sigh. No hope there.
 
Old 12-09-2018, 04:33 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post

So now I'm adding History to Science and if you want to try to prove my views inaccurate please do so in those fields since spouting political rhetoric only makes you look foolish, bought and paid for, in this area. My table. My rules. Five card stud and nothing is trump... or something like that
I am neither right nor left, since they are two wings of the same bird. Get rid of parties, and have individuals run on ideas/plans etc... but that's a little off topic now.



PS: It may have been lost in all of these pages/posts, but I am in favor of different/multi-layered sources of energy production, and the technology behind those sources should continually improve/evolve to become safer, more secure, more efficient etc...
 
Old 12-09-2018, 05:14 PM   #246
rokytnji
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Hardest part of making energy.

It takes energy and resources to make energy.
Even non polluting.

You got to build the tidal generators.
Or volcanic generators.

Tesla already proved that folks do not want free non polluting anything.
If you cannot make money on it.
We will bury you if you try.
How is this for a history lesson

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ower-11074324/

Ya got's to admit. This is a good pipe dream thread. As we slowly slide to hotter summers.

https://www.smh.com.au/environment/w...01-p4zcox.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-r...ay-2018-07-24/


I would love to camp out with the deniers here in West Texas in May, June, July, or even Aug. In tent Bring sunscreen/
They can even use my phone as a router.

Then they can post how nice the weather is in this thread.

Imagine that. 90 degrees F in Siberia
https://www.pauldouglasweather.com/a...anthrax-virus/


Positive results from Climate Change. Releasing Anthrax. Just like the butterflies.

Last edited by rokytnji; 12-09-2018 at 05:20 PM.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 12:30 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
I am neither right nor left, since they are two wings of the same bird. Get rid of parties, and have individuals run on ideas/plans etc... but that's a little off topic now.
It is a tangent but obviously one that needs to be addressed because everything I view tells me that ALL of the denial for human caused climate change is political. EVERY source listed so far in this thread is Right Wing and many listed and linked here are the extreme buffoons, nutjobs and scam artists with nothing to offer but right wing party line and ZERO scientific data of any kind let alone long term study. The process seems to be "hear it from a pundit and pass it on without any critical thinking" while distrusting and denying anyone actually expert in the field. It's like Religion where "if you offend my God, you offend me" and never see that the priests at the pulpits work for Exxon-Mobil.

ChuangTzu, your line quoted above may well be an example of cognitive dissonance because it seems your attitude is that you want to be thought of as non partisan but everything you have said and done, right down to the main poll question where you assert that it is a hoax, and every thing you post as evidence is political and right wing dogma. This seems a strong case where attitude and behavior are in direct opposition.

If I am wrong in my assessment of your position, show us all here by stating as I did that you would be happy to be proven wrong. It would be a huge sigh of relief for me because the issue and my stance on it doesn't define me beyond standing up for Science and Reason, which when done right KNOWS it will make mistakes and will always be refined and sometimes, rebooted. I wouldn't even need to apologize for being mistaken since I used the sharpest tools in the shed and errred on the side of caution that would save lives and possibly entire nation's economies. I'd just be glad we dodged that bullet. So demonstrate non-partisanship, take action and write it out for all to see here that you would welcome irrefutable evidence that humans have in fact caused a critical shift in climate change and it's rate. I don't think you can and I'd love for you to prove me wrong.

I have clicked on and viewed, listened to and read every link posted in this thread and while I can't say so for certain in your case I can in some cases and suspect it in yours that choices have been made to not even try to hear any view not already one's own.
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Old 12-10-2018, 02:51 AM   #248
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Red face

Politics, religion, opinions, no difference; mmm yummy what a good 🍓rganic strawberry I'm eating here, in today's day and age...
 
Old 12-10-2018, 03:18 AM   #249
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While I wasn't going to take part in this debate anymore...

enorbet, I think your a very smart person, and I'm glad you participate here - truly. I have a great deal of respect for yourself both as a human being as well as a member of this forum, and personally hope that you can continue to participate for as long as possible here. I not only think you being up some very points, I also quite enjoy reading your posts. I often find myself looking at things in a different way because of your insightful postings. I do honestly mean this - I would not even bother responding to you if the opposite were true.

But while I don't wish to continue debating something that I think most of us can agree is very real; I just think (and agree with you) that looking at it through "political eyes" isn't going to solve anything nor get us anywhere. So I do agree that it should be the science that matters, not which political view you may have. But I also can't help but think that the term "man-made climate change" is just misleading people that don't know any better. I go back to the point I made before, in that: if it was "man-made" then it could not of been happening before us humans come along. This, from everything I know and have read, simply is not true, it WAS happening before us humans come into the picture. But yes, we have had, and currently ARE, the single biggest influence on climate change. And to me that's just it - we are an influence, not the "cause". This is exactly why I personally cannot agree with the term "man-made climate change". BUT, yes, you would be a fool to say climate change is not happening and it's just some people wanting to make some money.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 04:23 AM   #250
enorbet
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Whew! I hardly know what to say except thank you, jsbjsb001.

Since I'm certain that a pure Laissez-fair Capitalist state has not existed for more than maybe a minute, when we say "Politics" we are always also talking about "Economics" and where money, livelihoods, and perhaps more importantly, Political Clout are concerned we have to remember lying or "spin doctoring" is the least of sins commonly committed to protect wealth. It is not uncommon for people to murder their own Wives, Husbands, Mothers and Fathers over wealth and power.

Fossil Fuels represent the single most powerful industry on the planet so it is quite reasonable to expect them to lie, cheat, steal, and kill to protect their moneyed interests. For reference on that list of Top 10 Oil Companies, Haliburton is only number 8, with number 1, Exxon-Mobil, having roughly 10 times the income from Oil as Haliburton and we all should know something of some of the shenanigans of Haliburton. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Exxon-Mobil is not above getting at least as "under the table" and shady since they have more at stake and more power to protect that stake. This is the major reason that I prefer this discussion not get involved in opinion, especially Politically-driven opinion, but stick to testable evidence.

As for your honest and understandable question and concern I also realize a thread of this size gets difficult to read and absorb every post so since I think that's been answered let me provide for you a link to a calm, non political explanation about what so often gets missed or overlooked when discussing Man's role in the Carbon Cycle and why it is in fact unique despite being a fraction of the total cycle.

Please do either read this or watch the video or both on the same web page. This is extremely simple Science and easy for those generally unconcerned with Science to comprehend. Please do visit this web page ====>> https://www.skepticalscience.com/hum...-emissions.htm

I think it is easy to see why such a relatively small contribution acts like "the straw that breaks the camel's back" from such a simple and graphic representation. The key is in the rate. That hasn't ever happened before. I sincerely hope this answers your concern and if it doesn't please do not hesitate to say so. I welcome both questions and criticisms when they are sincere and not agenda-driven by the shell game PR campaigns of Big Oil.

I don't know how to evaluate what's more important, the potential devastation from unchecked climate change, or the upset to Democracies when a single interest group has so much power and influence and 150 years to consolidate and refine such power. Checks and Balances only works when the playing field is reasonably level and it hasn't been for a very long time. If I may be allowed what I think is a minor speculation, I think our Founding Fathers would be appalled that a single Industry controlled by a handful of families could ever become so powerful and ruthless.

Last edited by enorbet; 12-10-2018 at 04:26 AM.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 05:48 AM   #251
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I don't know why you think that more democracy is going to provide an answer to this problem. Recent events in France show clearly enough what the will of the people is. They want cheap petrol/gas and they are prepared to enforce this with violence if necessary.

The only tried and tested way to stop people from using something is to make it hugely expensive. But if you try that with fossil fuels, the poor die of hypothermia and the middle classes riot and bring down the government.

The only other thing I can think of that might work is some kind of religious revival. If people could be persuaded that renouncing fossil fuels is the only way to avoid going to hell for eternity, then they might do it! But I suspect that quite a few contributors to this thread would consider that cure worse than the disease.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 02:00 PM   #252
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Non Sequitur, Hazel. I don't think anyone here is stating that Democracy will or can provide an answer. I have speculated that solving the problem may provide an important answer for US democracy but that's the reverse cause and effect from your main point in this recent post. Ideally one solution may be through education and some form of tax punishment for Big Oil for damaging the public good since they've enjoyed more than a century of entitled corporate welfare and "incentives" from moist governments of all kinds. However I doubt that would be anywhere near enough even where and when possible.

One of the reasons I am so concerned and created this thread is that I strongly suspect we, as a species, will do no more than the barest minimum until economies start suffering and collapsing and people start dying en masse. There is a very long list of greatly damaged , even failed, once great civilizations that paid no heed to slowly progressing conditions like drought, dwindling resources, and poor "tribe" hygiene. Some Historians often note that in retrospect The Black Plague was a good thing since it reduced a population size that was unsustainable given the then current technology and those that survived were substantially better off. Hopefully that the Plague was still only a somewhat localized event as opposed to this global threat doesn't mean there won't be anything surviving we consider "civilization" and few of us here are forced to witness the tragedy of our short-sighted hubris, but that remains to unfold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Cliche
Everybody wants to go to Heaven but nobody wants to die.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 02:56 PM   #253
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enorbet,

The approach to "man made climate change" reminds me of the approach of system(letter that shall not be used). There is a very old premise in science (ancient and modern), that unfortunately is wanning more and more each year/decade: Until something is proven to be a fact all theories are presented, all have a seat at the table so to speak, and open debate is encouraged, testing each others hypothesis, conferring, disproving, reformulating, resubmitting, etc... (even if a "Fact" debate and reflection is still valuable). This approach strengthens logic/reason/knowledge/wisdom etc... The opposite approach of accept this [fill in blank] as fact and disallow any dissenting views/theories/hypothesis etc... is not science its tyranny. Religions have made this mistake (could argue they still do), technology can make this mistake, Medicine can make this mistake, anything can actually...My Culture is right others are wrong, USA has all the right answers everyone else is wrong etc... ad nauseum.

It even shows up in this thread, resorting to yelling/shouting (all caps) resorting to name calling, this approach actually weakens your stance, even if the person is correct, often times the first to yell or lose their "cool" has already lost. Example, its no longer self defense if the initial victim throws the first punch.

I will give your approach a few tips, listen up man made climate change group:
  1. drop the sky is falling approach (similar to crying wolf)
  2. drop the scare tactics and fear mongering
  3. don't shout down opposition, welcome it and let them address themselves/their views, if your view is solid and correct it will surely stand the test of time and the crazies will expose themselves as crazy, and further prove the rightness of your claims. Similar to the Doha debates, TED talks etc...
  4. educate people on better ways of living, recycling is better for the environment and it also reduces costs/waste etc...
  5. wind/solar can help you to reduce your electric bill, saving you money, may even have the power company pay you for generating electricity$$$$
  6. don't allow your position to be hijacked by crazies in the political field and corporate field...they are hurting your "science" and position. When electric companies fine people for generating their own electricity and storing it in their own batteries, and force them to put the energy back into the grid, as an example.
  7. encourage/teach people to grow some of their own food, if everyone did this there would be no food shortages...Russians and Chinese did this as a way to survive and cope during Stalin and Mao's disastrous/dangerous campaigns which caused massive food shortages/starvation. Imagine if everyone had a backyard food garden, patio/balcony garden etc... This was also done during WWII, I think they were called Victory Gardens.
  8. do not invent something and produce it until you are sure that all of the potential side effects have been eliminated, negated or dealt with
  9. take a long term approach, think in 100 year time spans, then gradually work towards it, small steps....
  10. show with humility that even if the climate change turns out to be completely natural, that these steps are still beneficial for everyone
  11. create plans that stimulates the changes needed with minimal disruption to lifestyle for everyone ,not just the elites (Al Gores mansions and private jets and ever expanding waistline does not add credibility to his inconvenient truth message/dogma). To use your priest example, its more akin to preaching the evils of sloth/gluttony/greed and being an obese priest living in a palace.
  12. lead by example, and demonstrate to the world how homes, towns, cities, states, countries that are following certain steps are living wonderful lives of abundance/richness/togetherness etc... with perfect air, water, energy...

Consensus, middle ground...

PS: support companies that are moving in the "right direction", similar to this: (no I am not a paid endorser)
https://www.subaru.com/csr/environme...l#!/2016/05/25
https://www.treehugger.com/corporate...facturing.html
https://www.npca.org/articles/808-su...ark-service-to

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 12-10-2018 at 03:05 PM.
 
Old 12-10-2018, 02:59 PM   #254
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Arrow

______science in reality______
politics * religions * opinions
 
Old 12-10-2018, 03:04 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
The only other thing I can think of that might work is some kind of religious revival.
The left has been implementing that for decades, or at least a decade. I wasn't joking when I called Rev. AlGore the high priest of the Apoplectic Church of Sensational Destruction. That movement is very much like a religion which has corrupted and co-opted science as its authority in lieu of a god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I don't think anyone here is stating that Democracy will or can provide an answer.
Because the goal of the movement is not to solve any perceived problem, but to replace Democracy with authority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
One of the reasons I am so concerned and created this thread is that I strongly suspect we, as a species, will do no more than the barest minimum until economies start suffering and collapsing and people start dying en masse.
That's the apoplectic and sensational destruction I was referring to.

Socialism will definitely destroy our economy. CO2 will not.
CO2 makes food grow better.
 
  


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