i know that everryone on this planet is an inept babooon, but it still gets irritating dealing with it every single day. does the debbian programming staff consist of 10 d&d playing geeks who refuse to play with anybody else? why do they make it so dificult for someone to help make their software better? wheezy has so many bugs in it, there's no way that it'll be production ready in a few months. i try to assist them by reporting a bug. of course, an html interface would be to0 easy. you're supposed to do it 'the debian way' by using punch cards and machine code. i tried using reportbug-ng. big surprise, the crap doesn't work. instead of simply filling out a form and then sending it automaticallly, i'm asked to select an email client (what is this 1980?). i select yahoo mail. i type out my mesage. i click send. yahoo says that the message can't be sent. something wrong with the address that was automatically filled by reportbug-ng. seriously? plus, aren't all the email addresses used published on the web, which every spambot has access to. that doesn't seem very secure. before that, i spent a few hours figuring out that java worked better in 2009 on lenny than it does now. big surprise, it's because there are liscening issues. i'm a vegan, so ideals are great, but can you at least warn me in the item description that opengdk and coffearoast or coffeemintcreamcup, or whatever it's called, is crap, especially version 7. if i invited you over for dinner and when you get there, i serve you up some cold, cubed up tofu in a bowle, and say 'dig in', would that not be a little insulting? it's great that you invited me over for dinner, but can you give me the heads up that it might taste like crap, especailly to the average, fast-food inhaling american monkey? and if debian is so idealistic, why does it ship with gnome (pronouned nome, not guh-nome) or kde as a d.e. that software is complete bloated wannabe m.s. piss that is buggy and unstable. it sucks up resources unnnesessarily and does not add to productively. debian should have been shipping with fluxbox and/or icewm before woody's time. that's one of many bonehead decisions. it's actually related to my bugreport that said galternatives does not uninstall all that gnome crap that it needs to run, so you have to go back and individually remove the unecessary dependencies. i've barely even touched the surface, but i have an epson printer to pick up from the post ofice. i intentially avoided all canon printers, because their linux support is allegedly inferior. we'll see how long it takes to install. let's see, a few more buggy crap in wheezy:

)abiword, buggier than ever
)alsamixergui didn't work in lenny, doesn't now. did it ever?
)chomium is unstable, especially when memory gets low. i think it leaks mem still
)firefox, maybe a little better, but as i've been typing this, the ram usage keeps going up in megabytes (4 from this sentence alone). if not for my new ssd, i don't think it would be worth it.
)everyone knows flash is crap on crap.
)the installer didn't even recognize that i already had a bootable linux partition setup and it wanted to override my mbr.

it's 2012; debian wheezy is worse than my current lenny install, which hasn't been updated in over a year. the cycle is now complete. your bloated, buggy fascist master has taught you well. you are now to be known as 'm.s. debian'.

I can see why they called it Wheezy.

CrunchBang, a Debian-based distribution which runs the Openbox WM by default, might be worth a look. The community is much friendlier and it is actually snappy on my relatively-antiquated hardware

Oh, my.

Wheezy is "testing."

That's why it's not called "stable."

Moved: This thread is more suitable in <General> and has been moved accordingly to help your thread/question get the exposure it deserves.

vegan;

Could you repeat the question?......

Seriously, I'm not sure what kind of responses you are looking for.....Your initial paragraph--with run-on sentences, no capitals, etc.--is essentially unreadable.

I could make a wild guess that you don't like Debian. If I'm right, then I suggest you pick something else from this list: http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major

Do I detect some irony there?

Seriously, I think Debian does live in a world of its own. I used it for a while when Fedora had been making me feel like a hamster in a wheel and before I switched to CentOS. The thing that put me off was the tone of the forum; mind you, the CentOS forum is not much friendlier, but I don't need it now.

As for bug reporting, it's mess in most big distros. Fedora required you to post your email address for every spammer to read. I tried to post some bugs at Mate once, and couldn't make head of tail of the bug tracker: it seemed I had to know where the bug was before I reported it. In exasperation, I complained on the forum, and a developer said "OK, post your bugs in this thread and I'll file them for you." Now that's what I call helpful.

No irony, just moderator decision.

Prior to this post you have posted 2 times in nearly 7 years and that's it. Now you come back with a virtually unreadable post and complain about Debian, well done. Now you have that off your chest will we see you agian in the next 6 years or will we have to wait for nearly 7 to pass before you post again.

this is exactly what i was venting about. these people in power can't even do the simplest things, like follow the hierarchy that they themselves created. even though i was feeling extra disgruntled, i took the time to scan the forum headings so i could place my post in the proper area. i put the post exactly where it should have gone. let's see:

forums --> non-*nix Forums...

time to exit the hierarchy because the classification doesn't apply.

forums --> linux forums --> linux general (this Linux forum is for general linux questions and discussion.
if it is linux related and doesn't seem to fit in any other forum then this is the place.)

debian/linux rant that doesn't fit anywhere else, yup, right on the money.

everyone really knows that you were just offended by my rant and wanted to move it as much out of the way as possible. power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. at least have the courage to admit reality.

You neither have asked a question nor tried to start a discussion. As you stated yourself you just wanted to vent and the non-*NIX/General forum is exactly the place for that. Also keep the LQ Rules in mind, you have agreed to them when signing up here:
I can assure you that onebuck is a fair and reasonable moderator who doesn't get offended by rants about not properly working testing versions of Debian. He isn't even a Debian user.

I can at least answer you a few things: This isn't about ideals, it is about licensing issues. Due to a change in the license no distro is allowed to ship with Oracle's Java anymore, but since there has to be a replacement in the repositories they chose OpenJDK for that, as (almost?) any other distro did. I don't like that version either, since it (currently) does not work with a few of the programs I use, but this is not the fault of Debian or any other distro, blame Oracle for it.

Debian's ideals are about free software, not about if you consider Gnome or KDE to be bloated. I can't comment on Debian's KDE or Gnome quality, since I have currently no desktop machine with Debian running and if I would have there would only be i3 on it, but there are some Debian Testing and Unstable users (KDE and Gnome) here that don't complain about stability and I know that KDE runs great and without problems on Slackware (no current Gnome version available for Slackware).

Which default desktop Debian is shipped with is obviously up to the Debian developers. If you want a change in Debian's philosophy or at least the decision which desktop it ships as default desktop you will have to actively participate in that process. Keep in mind that there is not only the default install CD, but also CDs for KDE, XFCE and LXDE (if you choose the install-DVD you can choose which desktop to install in the boot-menu, all those mentioned are included). You can also just do a standard install without GUI and just do aif you only want a WM instead of a DE. Replace Fluxbox with your favorite WM in that command.

It is Linux. It is all about choice. If you don't like Debian then simply don't use it. Nobody forces you to do so, there are 300+ other active distributions. If you want something rock-stable try Slackware or CentOS/Scientific Linux.

good job at seeing through the incoherent ranting and getting to a valid point i was frothing about. thanks for making open source software better by admitting that it still has much room for improvement. for those mindless monkeys that remain clueless, i'll leave you with an old school fable:

there was once a boy who was well mannered and polite. he received good, but not great, marks in school. given that he spent 50% of his class time daydreaming, his academic record was quite good. this boy enrolled in a science class during the fall term. his science teacher was a mean, old, crotchety man. well, not exactly. to everyone else in class, he was tolerant, even when they were misbehaving. the boy couldn't understand why his cantankerous teacher treated him so harshly. every day, the boy would come home and complain to anyone who would listen about all the mean things that his teacher said to him that day.

one day, his mother, concerned for the emotional disposition of her son, said to him, "why don't you just talk to your teacher. maybe you did something to offend him." the boy knew that his mother was wrong, so he dismissed her suggestion. after another month of relentless criticism, the boy could take it no more. after class, he walked right up to the old coot and said,"look, i'm sick and tired of you being so mean to me. whenever the other students ditch class or crack jokes, you never say a word, but if i'm 20 seconds late or daydreaming for a minute or two, you tear me a new one. i just want to know why; did i offend you in some way?"

the teacher's chiseled wrinkles briefly revealed a wry smile. he slowly looked into the boy's eyes and after a pause began to speak,"i thought it was obvious to you what i was doing. i do it because i care. i ignore your other classmates because, honestly, they're always going to be screw-ups. you have an infinite amount of potential within you, but you don't tap into it. instead, you wander around in life without focus or purpose. no one else in your class has the potential to achieve great things like you. i won't apologize for pushing you and challenging you to achieve grandiose things. i will continue to criticize you relentlessly for as long as you choose to underachieve. the world needs wonderful people like you if it's ever going be saved."

the boy never complained about his teacher again.

And no one ever read the fable.
Honesty, no matter your opinion, no one's going to take you seriously if you continuously call everyone names.
Personally i am not happy with all the decisions the Debian devs have taken. I filed a bug that affects a unique desktop environment setup i use. I checked up on that bug a couple weeks ago, and the devs have made up there minds that it's not worth perusing. There's an easy solution, use a different distribution. I continue to use Debian because of other reasons, but i could just as easily switch to my Opensuse partition which also makes me very happy.
Here's something you should take on board. Debian is a community effort, run by volunteers. The people behind it try there best for (usually) nothing to package and provide patches to an enormous amount of software. If you have a problem with the methods used, maybe try Arch linux. Arch provides unpatched, vanilla software for the most part. They didn't create the software, you're lucky they're packaging it for easy install for you. Debian is exactly the same but they even patch bugs for you. Even try Slackware. You're repository is basically limited to what's on the dvd, and everything else is up to you to compile of find some other kind soul who's hosting there pre-made packages.
The Debian devs put a lot of effort into there project, even though it can be easily overlooked at times. If you can't appreciate it for what they've done, then get off your ass and fix the things that are annoying you your self, and stop annoying us, or go use Slackware where you learn to appreciate the extra effort because you are the one that has to do it.

Hey, I read the fable.


It was nice...

It never ceases to amaze me how many people install Testing expecting to get Stable. Those of us who do not like bugs use Stable, because we want a (surprise) stable system. It is like renting or buying a porn movie and complaining about offensive sex scenes. When will people learn to read? -Stable, Testing, Unstable- It is not very difficult to understand.

I do not mean to criticise other members, but I question the wisdom of recommending Arch and Slackware to someone who finds Debian too difficult. Just saying.