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Old 09-21-2017, 05:39 PM   #16
enorbet
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Hello again, sundialsvcs, I will refrain from comments linking "good intentions" with "the road to Hell" beyond saying please look up Chris Rea's song, parts 1 and 2, of the same name about selling oneself to the rich. It's just a well-written, intelligently scripted song but worthwhile commentary and food for thought.

More to the point regarding the actual intentions and outcomes of such from Mr. Donald Trump, let me refer you to an excellent article from The New Yorker found here

http://tinyurl.com/ycb9u7ax --- Is Iran Now More Popular Since US Address at the UN ? ---

Here's a tidbit

Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_New_Yorker - Robin Wright article
One by one, the Europeans came to confer with the leader of a country that has been ostracized by the outside world, for decades, as a pariah. No longer.

The outside world now comes calling on Iran.
Since this regards Nuclear weapons policy one might say it has a modicum of importance and while Trump claims to have "made my decision" he has yet to share that view with even his closest friends and advisors. So far it is mainly bluster and posturing like a banty rooster. Hopefully it won't escalate to the proverbial "Bull in a China shop" both literally and figuratively.

Deja Vu all over again
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:11 AM   #17
odiseo77
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Meh, for me it's the same old story: interventionism, imperialism, war, threats, sanctions... Why do every US government in history believe they have the right to stick their noses in other countries' business and impose their policies and ideology to the rest of the world?
 
Old 09-22-2017, 09:17 AM   #18
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In the case of North Korea, the "bull in the china shop" is the group of psychopaths (and I use that term quite literally) who are now in command of that country. We are faced with an unstable and very dangerous group of people, and they represent a threat to the world community, not just the US. Fortunately, the United Nations ... including Russia and neighboring China ... is united in opposing them.

The North Korean government, showing no concern for their own people nor for the people of any other nation, nor proper regard for human life (hence, "psychopathy"), seem to treat world peace as a game of "chicken." They're accustomed to being spoken to with a deference that they simply do not deserve, and they've gotten away with an ever-worsening pattern of behavior for decades. Here now, the commander-in-chief of one of the world's most powerful militaries is using terms of derision, and is quite-plainly calling out the regime's abuses to the rest of the world. He seems to be speaking plainly when no one else did.

But there is one thing that should be clear by now about Donald Trump – the negotiating tactics which made him a billionaire. Politicians are usually not good negotiators. Businessmen have to be. Trump is using tactics that are purposed to push someone out of their comfort-zone and to force them to respond. He's using one tactic in public and obviously another one in private. The press has never had to deal with anyone like this, and still doesn't know how ... partly because Trump is also manipulating them! He knows what the press wants and expects, and he's working that against them. On purpose.

If you want to get a better idea of how this man operates, go read his book about The Art of the Deal.

He is, himself, anything but stupid, irrational, or any of the other things that he's been called. I think that he cares quite passionately about his position, and about his country. I think also that he will re-define the Office of the President for everyone who holds it after him. (Exactly as the American public intended, when they elected him.)

When asked about his "rocket man" comment, our ambassador to the UN replied, "it worked." She said that other diplomats had since used the same term in conversation.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 09-22-2017 at 09:52 AM.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 01:21 PM   #19
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Shame the comeback wasn't about the size of Trump's Plane (Air Force 1+) the design of which has had to be modified for him to be bigger than all prior ones. (right shape as well).

Mind you I suppose it had to be to cope with the size of his ego.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 01:32 PM   #20
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
It seems to have always been the case that either "professional politicians" or "retired Generals" won the office as the culmination of a practiced lifetime of political juggling. The people instead seized upon a completely(!) un-conventional choice. But I think that they did it on purpose, and I think that they knew precisely what they (hoped that they) were doing. In any case, American history will not forget this man.
you are forgetting actors.
between those and retired generals, i don't think an egomaniac & unscrupulous businessman is "un-conventional" (sic) at all.
quite the opposite: it just confirms a trend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
for the first time in a great many decades, American Presidential politics has just become very interesting to watch!
i think schwarzenegger would've been more interesting to watch (i was too young to fully enjoy the cowboy/hollywood era of american presidency).
a bull in a china shop is also very interesting to watch.

When it finally happens, I really hope the USA will implode politically, not explode.

PS:
sorry, I know not all Americans are rednecks, and the term itself might be insulting to some who don't deserve it.
You are all welcome to emigrate to Europe when things start going really south over there!

Last edited by ondoho; 09-22-2017 at 01:34 PM.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 04:33 PM   #21
dave@burn-it.co.uk
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Not enough room!!
 
Old 09-22-2017, 05:32 PM   #22
ondoho
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^ maybe in britain.
 
Old 09-22-2017, 05:39 PM   #23
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odiseo77 View Post
Meh, for me it's the same old story: interventionism, imperialism, war, threats, sanctions... Why do every US government in history believe they have the right to stick their noses in other countries' business and impose their policies and ideology to the rest of the world?
One of the common difficulties in political discussion is the tendency to generalize in some convenient but overly simplistic and inaccurate popsition, often based on propaganda and/or prevailing popular opinion. To check the accuracy of your statement, odiseo, please consult actual History. For starters I refer you to George Washintons warnings about "entangling alliances, the Monroe Doctrine (1823-1943). It also might be worthy of your attention to note the US late entry into WWII exactly because of the non-intervention policy of the previous 100 years having led to an amazingly small, antiquated and under equipped armed forces. It was only after WWII where the combination of the growth of what Dweight Eisenhower called The Military-Industrial Complex in his rather insightful "Farewell Address" and the slap-in-the-face awareness/fear created by atomic weapons, quantum leaped in only 15 years by long range delivery systems that created the modern US "octopus".

Please, Sir, it is important that all of us check our aim before we "shoot our mouths off".
 
Old 09-22-2017, 06:17 PM   #24
enorbet
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Regarding Businessman Negotiation Tactics in Politics - IMHO these arenas come with entirely different Rules of Engagement and even Ultimate Goal. They are Oil and Water, of both fluids either have or will have fueled wars even though I'm mainly referring to the "don't mix" characteristic here and now.

Anyone who has ever worked "in Corporate" knows that Big Business is a One-Eyed Monster (little or no depth perception) usually driven by an impetus of "succeed at any cost and clean up after the dust settles". It is a form of monotheism where The Divine One is The Corporation which is very often complicated these days by corporations having become so complex with numerous inter-dependencies and subsidiaries that this Monster sometimes eats it's own limbs and writes it off as "the price of doing business". It is as single purposed as The Military - crush the competition! "Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead!"

The importance of politicians being schooled in Law is that they learn, to varying degrees but at least "at all", about Balance of Power and devotion to actual Principles instead of "whatever it takes". Since it is only marginally possible to bully another in politics negotiation means something very different to a Lawyer/Politician than to a lifelong CEO. I suspect that whatever Mr Trump's intentions are he very often feels frustrated at being out of his element where bully business tactics just don't work.. Also since much of what actually happens in Big Business is "Back Room Black Ops" we can't expect him to be at all sincere and forthcoming in describing "his vision for the country" and so far if we look at what he campaigned on and what he has even attempted to enact, we have no idea what he is really up to or even if he can truly accomplish anything of lasting importance excepting the possibility of learning a good lesson or, worse, making a huge mess for others to clean up.
 
Old 09-23-2017, 08:01 AM   #25
sundialsvcs
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Perhaps we are all finally realizing what can happen when a war (the Korean War) is put on "pause" and never resolved.

Perhaps we see how vulnerable we all have become.

Someone needs to say that. And, finally, someone did.
 
Old 09-23-2017, 12:27 PM   #26
enorbet
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It seems to me that goes with the territory of attempting to solve problems by force. Unless every single individual who even cares about the ;losing side is utterly annihilated, the burden of the shame and hatred is passed down in some manner to succeeding generations at least for a few generations and sometimes much longer. An example of the latter, at least from what I read, is that while there was apparently no clear winner nor loser many Muslims carry The Crusades around with them in a manner I don't know if any Westerners do.

Speaking of things we read, sundialsvcs, this thread has become a bit of a conundrum to me in trying to understand "what makes you tick". You seem quite willing to withhold skepticism regarding what we think we know about North Korea (the party line?) when few of us have been there or read a North Korean document or experienced much at all of anything remotely like hard evidence yet for such things as The Apollo Moon Landings despite verifiable, objective evidence, you doggedly maintain uber skepticism. We are probably all of us blind to our own prejudices, but I have to wonder what drives yours? Do you ever wonder?
 
Old 09-24-2017, 02:21 AM   #27
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Trump should try to send Dennis Rodman overthere to get things sorted out.
 
Old 09-24-2017, 10:13 PM   #28
sundialsvcs
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No, enorbet, I do not wonder. (And in fact, I think I'll just "opt out" of that whole inquiry. Let's stay on-topic instead.)

- - -

Shifting the topic back to the OP, I think that in many ways we are seeing a head-of-state using language that "professional politicians" are not accustomed to hearing. The various media channels are certainly not accustomed to it. Many people are calling it the end of the world as we know it.

But, is it actually the future of diplomatic discourse?

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 09-24-2017 at 10:20 PM.
 
Old 09-24-2017, 10:58 PM   #29
michaelk
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I hope not...

IMHO the President speeches whether talking to the Boy Scouts or United Nations have been directed to his fan base twitter followers. His one mode which is constant campaigning only appeals to his fan base instead of trying to unite everyone.

I agree that the Korean war has been at ceasefire for 60+ years. Calling Kim Jong-un rocket man on twitter is not very smart. It is not apparent that he truly understands North Korean culture or its leader with how the country views the US (brainwashing propaganda). Economic sanctions have failed to work in the past and doubtful that the new ones will stop weapon development.

The old saying that one should engage brain before opening the mouth...

Last edited by michaelk; 09-24-2017 at 11:09 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2017, 02:30 AM   #30
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
I think that in many ways we are seeing a head-of-state using language that "professional politicians" are not accustomed to hearing. The various media channels are certainly not accustomed to it. Many people are calling it the end of the world as we know it.
i have yet to see the article that predicts the end of the world because of the way Mister T. speaks.
No, it's the things he's saying. And sometimes even acts upon.

Like, antagonizing most of the world by dominant-aggressive talk about military force.

Sometimes even demanding to get paid for that.

Sheriff of the world, it's an old image but still apt: "I'm the Law around here!" I read that in the currently discussed speech as well as in many other things he said.

But I also see many other things wrong with this person's "politics".
Like I said before, deliberately catering to the base needs and jumbled emotions of the dumb and clueless, (no doubt in the hope that they are the majority).

to me, this was the last drop. since then, my mind is made up.

Last edited by ondoho; 09-25-2017 at 02:31 AM.
 
  


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