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Old 01-29-2016, 02:12 PM   #31
ondoho
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disagreeing with steven_g on this doesn't mean that i disagree with everything else steven_g believes in, and the arrogance of remarks like these (yes, plural):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_G View Post
OK, now we have taken 1/2 a baby step towards almost having a reasonable conversation.
just leaves me raving and speechless.

thinking that human-induced climate change is a reality (and a big problem) doesn't mean that i think that all other environmental/political/whatever problems are not important.

gaahhh!
 
Old 01-29-2016, 02:19 PM   #32
Hungry ghost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
odiseo77, I live in an area which is heavily dependent on shipping, particularly the shipping of coal. I understand the struggle of profit today versus long-term benefit tomorrow. Sadly, history teaches us that the short-term beats the long-term every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I expect that most of the city in which I live will be under water within 50 years. I won't be here for it, but I fear for my children.
Yes, nowadays it's more important for the system to salvage the economy no matter what, even at the expense of the ecologic balance of our own planet.
 
Old 01-29-2016, 04:49 PM   #33
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_G View Post
Localized? The *entire earth* swinging from snowball to tropical jungle is localized?
No. Of course that would not be merely "localized". It's just that Global Snowball Earth never happened, not 700 Million years ago and certainly not ~7000 years ago. There is zero evidence that the entirety of Earth's oceans ever froze over at the equator and considerable that it didn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_G View Post
And once again you completely glossed over good ol' Al and the poisoning of the planet. Ain't that convenient?
While Al Gore may be privy to some information that I am not, he is not a Scientist and has conducted no firsthand studies of evidence one way or the other. He has merely compiled the conclusions of others so therefore is not a "go to guy" except for those who disagree with his politics. Your focus on him is one of the things that shows you are not scientific but merely political.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_G View Post
Yes, the Koch's have an agenda and want to get rich off of me. You think Al and his buddies don't have an agenda? You honestly think they're not out to make money off of you?
The Koch's not only wish to make money on you (nothing really wrong with that) they wish to effectively destroy the modern education system so your offspring remains ignorant of business, history, politics, ...anything that might create an obstacle for them. They are people who not only wish to succeed but who need others to fail. I see no indication that "Al and his buddies" wish a return to a Medieval society like the Koch's apparently do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_G View Post
You honestly can't see this for the suckers game it is with all the rich guys on both sides of the argument sitting at the top getting richer as they intentionally divide us further like chips in a poker game so that we will waste time bickering w/ each other instead of acting?
I simply don't see anywhere near the financial rewards of reducing fossil fuel addiction than I do the losses to those invested in those fuels who wish to remain on top.In fact quite the opposite. Global Economy is so heavily dependent on Big Oil that any transition is going to be a hardship to some degree on everyone, including all convinced by the overwhelming evidence for human caused global climate change. Please name one group who can expect windfall profits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven_G View Post
When was the last time you called your Senator or Congressman?

I call both of mine on a weekly basis and comment on issues of cyber security, national security, personal privacy and security, food safety (or rather the lack thereof) and environmental poisoning.
I think this is irrelevant to this discussion but the last time I contacted my congressman was in 2004 regarding Intellectual Property and he completely misunderstood my concerns with adherence to the concept of Public Domain in the cycle of government guarantees of short term monopoly. While I do respect your involvement to some degree, I am just not as politically motivated as you seem to be. It seems a near obsession with you as I cannot imagine making 52 calls per year beating my head against such a moneyed wall of implacability... especially since corporations now have the rights of individual people in addition to all their power, regardless of what percentage of the corporation actually resides in the US. Do you really suppose your weekly calls equal even one paid lobbyist?
 
Old 02-02-2016, 06:20 AM   #34
Germany_chris
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I'm glad I stumbled on this thread, my eyes needed a little exercise.
 
Old 02-04-2016, 08:36 PM   #35
sundialsvcs
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Political corruption is nothing new.

Maybe Americans are unaccustomed to the idea that "left to their own devices, human beings generally do not give a damn about any other human beings besides themselves."

And, maybe also, they are unaccustomed to the idea that "people who think this way are especially drawn to 'positions of power.'"

And, maybe also(!), they do not like to consider that the aforesaid "positions of power" can be found in all three of the Constitutionally-defined "halls of government," as well as in the unspoken "bureau branch."

. . .

People such as the Koch brothers very simply understand that, "if I wave #FOX_WILL_NEVER_TELL_YOU_HOW_MANY# million dollars in your face, I PWN U D00D!"

Now, if you are still satisfied "merely to wring your hands and moan helplessly" at the inconceivable-to-you notion that a rich man can easily pay-off someone who ... actually ... sees no particular reason to care about you anyway (given that he is certain that there is no actual repercussion to himself other than 'to watch you wring our hands and moan helplessly' ... should he be bored enough to actually watch you), then ...

... the faith that the Founders of this country placed in you ... was entirely misplaced.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 02-04-2016 at 08:42 PM.
 
Old 02-05-2016, 11:39 AM   #36
DavidMcCann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
... the faith that the Founders of this country placed in you ... was entirely misplaced.
But the fathers of the USA didn't place their faith in any Tom, Dick, or Harry. In the first half-century, only tax-paying land-owners voted (50 acres in Delaware). John Adams wrote
Quote:
Depend upon it, Sir, it is dangerous to open so fruitful a source of controversy and altercation as would be opened by attempting to alter the qualifications of voters; there will be no end to it. New claims will arise; women will demand the vote; lads from 12 to 21 will think their rights not enough attended to; and every man who has not a farthing, will demand an equal voice with any other, in all acts of state. It tends to confound and destroy all distinctions, and prostrate all ranks to one common level.
 
Old 02-05-2016, 11:52 AM   #37
sundialsvcs
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Also, I happen to think that Al Gore was "brilliant in his under-statement" of exactly how he first presented this "inconvenient truth." He simply ... presented it. "Here is the evidence. Make of it what you will, but as a human society I think we need to look at this. Now."

Ever since we discovered coal and oil, we have brought trillions of tons of combustible material to the surface of the earth, and 'combusted' it. We did it because it was a cheap and reliable source of power. But, we didn't consider the long-term effects of releasing all that stuff into the atmosphere. And, of course, we do not fully and objectively know what that effect is. However, there are disturbing correlations.

"Correlations. Nothing more." We don't know how the atmosphere of a planet actually works... but, even as correlations, I think they need to be seriously contemplated as we make future national and international policy. Because, we all do "live here."

I live near the city of Chattanooga, Tennessee, which at one time was "the dirtiest city in America." I vividly remember an image that was burned in to my six-year-old brain: that of a handkerchief that made the front page. The handkerchief had three black spots on it: two nostrils, one mouth. The man had held it up to his face as he walked just a few blocks down Market Street. It motivated the City to create an air-pollution control board that exists to this day. It also motivated the United States to enact the Clean Air Act.

There are plenty of industrialists who would like to bring that dirty air back to America, now that China is finally beginning to have its craw full of what has been done to Beijing and other once-proud cities. (Some Olympic athletes refused to attend the Games, for health reasons, even though China shut down the factories for several weeks in attempt to 'clear the air.') These people would love to "make more money" in this way, and what better way to do it than to insist that it is both 'necessary' and 'not really harmful?'

The movers and shakers of Chattanooga, in those days, were careful to build their homes on surrounding ridges and mountains ... mostly above the choking smoke.
 
  


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