Just finished watching Children of Dune on Sci Fi and I must say, I was impressed (yeah, I know some of you will scream it was the worst movie ever made, so bite me )

Anyway, as I watching it, I was curious as to what Frank Herbert was aiming at religion wise? The whole story, of course, is full of blatant theology, alot of it reflecting, imho, Christianity. The Fremen are oppressed peoples, much like the Jews were, and with Paul being a Messiah, we can see the resembelance there.

What striked me even more was how it had grown into a full fledged religion, with crusades in Paul's name (again, we are reminded of what happened in our own past) and a church that had gone out of control and invented rituals and corruption.

Another scene that particularly caught my attention was the scene near the end, where Mau'dib went in a rage and destroyed the booths set up on the streets selling religios items, which reflected when Christ did something similar outside the temple in Jerusalem ( I believe they were selling sacrafices or something, it's been awhile since I read).

What I'm driving at is, anyone have any idea what Herbert was driving at in this story? I am hoping perhaps someone who has read the books could share, but anyone who has seen the movies or read somewhat of the books wants to share an opinion, feel free to!

I'm not a big fan (only read Dune and saw both versions of the movie), but I think Herbert was trying to create an entire world and civilisation. That was his true goal when he wrote the first Dune book. If you re read it, pay attention to all of the little things that characters say to one another and reference that mean nothing, but readers easily ignore them because they obviously refer to things that happened in the past. The most famous aspect of this is his use of quotes from (their) important historical books at the beginning of each chapter... That was genius, and has been copied by everyone from Clive Barker (Books of Blood) to that crappy "Andromeda" show.
PS- Jesus got pissed off at the money lenders in the Temple...

After reading all of the series, and setting aside his later obsession with sex(at sometimes a niggling doubt about pedophilia entered my mind as a part of his personality) I would say that the series is a broadening of social structure and religious structure. You'll see strong fundamentalist objectives in each lineage and group. Also a VERY strong shadowing of islam behind the whole thing. My feeling as I was reading them was the same feeling I get when I read 60's and 70's political novels, crossed with a religious bent to them.

And the fremen is an thinly veiled reworking of bedouin arabs, with islamic beliefs.

Yeah I would say it's closer to hinduism than christianity.

Yes, all valid points, but one of yopu stated that Herbert set out to create his own worlds in the books. I strongly disagree. For example, Huxley created a world in Brave new World, likewise in 1984. But these books have an overall message, if not several subtle messages.

What I am driving at is, what is the overal message about religion that Herbert is trying to express in dune? I am thinking perhaps the evil that can result in religion getting mixed with polotics, and perhaps how religion moves quickly beyond the wishes of the person being worshiped (I am thinking of Christ and the Crusades, Mau'dib and his sister's corrupt use of the so called church of Mau'Dib).

Anyone want to discuss this issue further?

Hm....ages since I read any, but here's what I remember....

Herbert uses vocabulary gleaned from several major religions. The 'Orange Catholic Bible' appears to refer to both the RC church and the 'Orange' Dutch/Ulster/Scots protestant movement, suggesting that there's been a rapprochement at the least.

The messianic title 'Kwisatz Haderach' appears to derive from French / Hebrew; 'Qui sais / ha'derach' (He Who Knows The Way).

The messiah figure is far more of a sacrificial Christ-figure than an Islamic-style Prophet, yet Fremen culture owes a vast amount to that of the Bedu, yes.

And as for the Bene Gesserit....Well, the name of the Order appears to derive from Latin and Greek ('Well Born' or perhaps 'Well Engendered') and this Order is devoted to the breeding of the Messiah: this is their overt aim, and they succeed so well in the end that they doom themselves to extinction. The notion of a Messianic bloodline is interesting since Herbert seems to have invented it: 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' and all that postdates the publication of Dune by some ten years.

It's a while since I read it (and I've only ever read the first volume) but I still think it's a most interesting book, the very definition of the term 'ambitious failure'. Herbert tries to tell the story of the Second Coming, or the Last Prophet/Mahdi, or the Maitreya; and of course he can't do it. But it's well worth a read none the less.

JD

PS the only other attempt I know of to tell a story of this magnitude is Babylon 5 (which might even have worked, if they'd stuck with the original leading man) whichi is also - IMO of course - an ambitious failure. You can't have two messiahs, JMS

what i think he was driving at is more along the lines of this:

the spice planet see, thats like microsoft and whoever controls it controls the world.

in the story evolution and advancement are at a standstill and this is like the software industry. so the bene gesserit produce bill gates who takes the golden path and through his tyrannical control of the source forces others to evolve in order to escape his control i.e. linus and linux. in the end making microsoft (the spice planet) unnecessary.

thats just my take or maybe if you asked him he might tell you he just wanted to write a story, but what do i know.

ROFLMASAO!!!!

J

oh duhh, I think that should have been 'ROFLMSAO'