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Old 11-23-2015, 11:02 AM   #61
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
I don't even want to know what you wanted us to say. I can take a guess that you're leading into one of those "Pearl Harbor was an inside job" conspiracy theories though.
The question of Pearl Harbor has been explored in great detail, and the consensus that I accept is that it was a diabolical military attack ... not something that the Commander-in-Chief "allowed" to happen.

One thing that we must remember is that communication, and navigation, was much more primitive in those days. We didn't have satellites orbiting overhead. Although much has since been written about the Americans "breaking" the JN25 naval code, this statement is rarely understood to mean that the cryptologists could only interpret the meaning of a small, very-scattered number of code-groups, and that there were often very large(!) unresolved gaps in the superencipherment. There were no computers (to speak of) in those days. In any case, there would be no messages to decrypt: the Japanese attack force observed strict radio silence from well before they left harbor in Japan, and the Japanese Navy did not send any messages to the fleet. (Admiral Yamamoto was very aware of the technology of the day.)

Although people scream that the Pearl Harbor defenders "saw the incoming planes on radar," we must remember that, at that time, there were no micro-electronics of any sort. Therefore, we had only very primitive radar, and the Japanese Navy didn't have radar at all. (See: http://ethw.org/Radar_during_World_War_II.)

The operators were reading oscilloscopes, not plot screens like you see in the movies, and they had to know within a very-few degrees in which way the antenna array was pointing ... which they did not know. A radar echo could be anywhere along a line in either direction, and there was plenty of noise. It was long-wave radar, and "long" waves bounce and spread-out. Range was short and bearings were approximate. Ground controllers could not provide bearings guaranteed to hit their targets, and airborne radar did not yet exist. Furthermore, command and control systems needed to make timely use of the information (such as it was ...) were also in their dirty-diaper infancy.

No GPS. Entire fleets navigated using log-lines, clocks, and sextants. The way that you knew that "the enemy was out there" was mostly when ... and i-f ... you saw them.

Finally, the US Navy could not afford the losses that it incurred, both in terms of ships and sailors. It is inconceivable that any Commander-in-Chief would have "allowed" such a thing for any 'reason,' political or otherwise.

You see, America could have lost the Pacific war on that single day. The Japanese military philosophy was always to deliver a single, knockout blow, and they almost succeded in doing that on December 7th. By almost every standard military measure, at the beginning of the war Japan held all the cards in the Pacific. No one matched their raw military strength in the region, and no other country was in any position to challenge their dominance ... and Japan knew it. Therefore: had the Japanese succeeded in wiping out the aircraft carriers (all four of them ...), as they obviously intended, they would have wiped out the Pacific fleet in a single stroke, and Hawaiians might be speaking Japanese right now.

As it was, they very nearly succeeded anyway. In the early days, World War II in the Pacific was desperately close to being lost.

Had Pearl sortied every one of its airplanes and sent them all in the right compass direction, it would have been a turkey-shoot for the Japanese. It is entirely possible that they all would have been shot out of the sky, and Pearl would have been bombed anyway. If the Japanese had destroyed the aircraft in the air, they might have chosen other targets, such as fuel depots and high-command centers. ("Admiral Chester Nimitz died at his office desk, December 7, 1941," "the American cryptanalysts at Pearl Harbor were obliterated," and so-on. The could-have-been headlines are very grim.) We don't know for certain if the Pearl Harbor fleet was being followed by an invasion force that could have seized a now-undefended Hawaii. It could have been a very different war, decisively ended (before it began) in the Pacific in a matter of days. Yes, the Japanese Navy was that powerful, and, in those days, we were not.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 11-23-2015 at 07:54 PM.
 
Old 11-23-2015, 02:44 PM   #62
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Code:
watch -n1 echo "guns and bombs to stop guns and bombs and thought"
Rearward ho!
 
Old 11-23-2015, 02:44 PM   #63
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Provoking a war is as easy as provoking a fight!! If both parties are bent on being bellicose and outright belligerent violence is inevitable!! As an old man I see the wisdom of just waking away from confrontations now that in my youth I would have always " stood my ground and got it on "!!
 
Old 11-24-2015, 06:08 AM   #64
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And talking about provoking a war, I just read that Turkey downed a Russian bomber in the Syrian-Turkish border. Doesn't surprise me, given the fact that the Turkish government is one of ISIS supporters. Turkey is also a member of the NATO, so things might get nasty.

This is clearly a retaliation to Russia from the Turkish government for attacking their terrorists and it's also a way to provoke a military confrontation between Turkey and Russia, so other NATO countries can get involved and attack Russia. The military-industrial complex must be rubbing their hands.
 
Old 11-24-2015, 12:10 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odiseo77 View Post
And talking about provoking a war, I just read that Turkey downed a Russian bomber in the Syrian-Turkish border. Doesn't surprise me, given the fact that the Turkish government is one of ISIS supporters. Turkey is also a member of the NATO, so things might get nasty.

This is clearly a retaliation to Russia from the Turkish government for attacking their terrorists and it's also a way to provoke a military confrontation between Turkey and Russia, so other NATO countries can get involved and attack Russia. The military-industrial complex must be rubbing their hands.
And now the " ball " is in Putin's court!! Will he refuse the bait and do nothing; will he respond with limited retaliation; or will Turkey be removed from the face of the earth?? An already very ugly situation just may get World War III rolling!!
 
Old 11-24-2015, 12:12 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cousinlucky View Post
And now the " ball " is in Putin's court!! Will he refuse the bait and do nothing; will he respond with limited retaliation; or will Turkey be removed from the face of the earth?? An already very ugly situation just may get World War III rolling!!

This does not bode well for the Turks at all.
 
Old 11-24-2015, 12:13 PM   #67
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It puts the mouse in the maze to find the cheese!!!

Last edited by jamison20000e; 11-24-2015 at 02:47 PM.
 
Old 11-24-2015, 12:43 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odiseo77 View Post
And talking about provoking a war, I just read that Turkey downed a Russian bomber in the Syrian-Turkish border. Doesn't surprise me, given the fact that the Turkish government is one of ISIS supporters.
^This!

And also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7343nXyGS0s

Last edited by Jeebizz; 11-24-2015 at 12:46 PM.
 
Old 11-24-2015, 01:17 PM   #69
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NATO press conference after incident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prbYrPOBnkg
skip to 37:10
 
Old 11-24-2015, 01:33 PM   #70
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvW0CvFYueA
 
Old 11-24-2015, 02:02 PM   #71
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It seems that there is also discontent with Turkey from other NATO members and clearly this makes things even worse for Turkey, even though lets say there is a war between Turkey and Russia, other NATO member will NOT rush to Turkey's aid, for good reason actually. So this puts a greater spotlight where Turkey's allegiance truly lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw-nBmsng1Q

--side note

If Turkey is willing to down a Russian jet that is bombing IS, will they go as far as downing French jets? So the other question is, is it really in Turkey's interest that IS is bombed? Hrmmmmm...

Last edited by Jeebizz; 11-24-2015 at 02:14 PM.
 
Old 11-25-2015, 02:12 AM   #72
cousinlucky
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The " War in Syria " is like all of the other " middle east wars "; it is all about controlling the oil and the money generated from that oil!! The " media spin " always avoids the real motives for these many wars to keep the public ignorant!! Governments have never cared about soldiers or civilians dying and they never will!!
 
Old 11-27-2015, 02:09 AM   #73
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West also directly or at least indirectly responsible for 'IS'

Sorry but I had to post another video link, this is also spot on, whether you agree or not. I don't see any better alternative, but to keep Assad in power, considering what has been seen so far, it can only get even worse and more territory for this 'Frankenstein' that has been created.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb_IZVwxw0M

Last edited by Jeebizz; 11-27-2015 at 02:13 AM.
 
Old 11-27-2015, 02:22 AM   #74
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Oh yea, and here is the discontent from other NATO members in the EU due to Turkey's recent actions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y5f0PXAyoU

Last edited by Jeebizz; 11-27-2015 at 02:26 AM.
 
Old 11-27-2015, 03:24 AM   #75
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Has anyone thought this through? - Pat Buchanan

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/11/...tarting-wwiii/
 
  


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